Author Topic: Workflow issues when Tagging & Rating files in PM, LR & C1  (Read 2654 times)

Offline jolliejay

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Workflow issues when Tagging & Rating files in PM, LR & C1
« on: September 22, 2017, 08:24:32 AM »
I'm running Photo Mechanic Version 5.0, build 18895 (d0ca74e), Lightroom CC 2015.12 Release & Capture One Pro 10.1.2 Build 10.1.2.26 (5ee1101) on OS X 10.11.6

Please see my LR, C1 & PM preferences in the images attached

My workflow is as follows:
  • Cull & rate in PM
  • Import into LR or C1
  • Edit in LR/C1 with further culling & rating if necessary
  • Sometimes I might browse a folder of images using PM at a later date and tag & rate again if necessary
LR & C1 picks up my tags and ratings perfectly fine on the first import (step 2).

When I tag & rate in LR/C1 in step 3 and browse in PM, I can see the updated changes perfectly fine.

However, when I tag & rate in step 4 and browse my photos in LR/C1 afterwards, LR/C1 does not seem to pick up the metadata changes.

I have read around the forums and feel like this thread, http://forums.camerabits.com/index.php?topic=9662.msg47470#msg47470, is relevant somehow but was hoping someone could explain in plain english as I don't understand it well enough!

I thought my preferences saves & updates all the tags & ratings to the XMP files?
Why is LR/C1 unable to read it if updated later through PM?
Do I have something set up wrong?

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Workflow issues when Tagging & Rating files in PM, LR & C1
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2017, 08:52:24 AM »
I expect that your other apps don't automatically re-read the images/XMP sidecar files and refer to their own metadata stored in their databases.  You'll need to force those apps to re-read metadata once you return to them.

Another possibility is that these apps have made copies of your images/metadata and you're not editing the copies.  Hard to tell without access to your machine.

HTH,

-Kirk
« Last Edit: September 22, 2017, 08:53:57 AM by Kirk Baker »

Offline Odd Skjaeveland

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Re: Workflow issues when Tagging & Rating files in PM, LR & C1
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2017, 09:02:20 AM »
I thought my preferences saves & updates all the tags & ratings to the XMP files?
Why is LR/C1 unable to read it if updated later through PM?

I use C1 in session mode and tags/ratings exchange well with PM, though I mostly do it manually.
PM sees tags/ratings I set or change in C1 provided I make C1 send metadata the XMP file.

Manually: Look for "Sync Metadata" and "Reload Metadata" in the Metadata tool (click the three dots ... button)

Automatically: Edit->Preferences->Image and look for "Auto Sync sidecar XMP" near the bottom of the dialog, select your preferred option and check the prefences below it, if appropriate. 
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Offline jolliejay

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Re: Workflow issues when Tagging & Rating files in PM, LR & C1
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2017, 12:28:59 AM »
To explain my situation better - I believe C1/LR is having trouble re-reading the sidecar files.

What works is that:
  • LR & C1 can see the ratings from PM (when I first import the images into LR or C1), and
  • PM can see any rating changes done in LR & C1 as I work through the files
But what doesn't work is that:
  • LR & C1 do not pick up any rating changes when I re-rate the the images in PM

I expect that your other apps don't automatically re-read the images/XMP sidecar files and refer to their own metadata stored in their databases.  You'll need to force those apps to re-read metadata once you return to them.

Are you familiar with how to do so for LR or C1? I thought that my settings (in the attached images) were telling my applications to do this?

Another possibility is that these apps have made copies of your images/metadata and you're not editing the copies.  Hard to tell without access to your machine.

Positive that there is no 'copies' being created and that PM, LR/C1 is looking at the same set of files (I can confirm this because when I change the ratings in LR/C1 the changes are picked up when I open the folder as a contact sheet in PM)

Online Hayo Baan

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Re: Workflow issues when Tagging & Rating files in PM, LR & C1
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2017, 12:58:32 AM »
Are you familiar with how to do so for LR or C1? I thought that my settings (in the attached images) were telling my applications to do this?

Your settings only have PM update the data in the XMP files (which is the way to do this), but LR and C1 won't re-read those (automatically). You'll need to tell the applications to manually do so. In LR just right click on an image and choose to reread the metadata from the metadata submenu. Alternatively, right click a complete folder in the folder list and choose synchronise folder. That's what I do when I have changed a lot of things outside LR (which I actually don't really use much; I very much prefer camera raw).

How to do this in C1, I don't know, but it should be possible there too.
Hayo Baan - Photography
Web: www.hayobaan.nl

Offline Odd Skjaeveland

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Re: Workflow issues when Tagging & Rating files in PM, LR & C1
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2017, 05:11:00 AM »
But what doesn't work is that:
LR & C1 do not pick up any rating changes when I re-rate the the images in PM

Exactly. C1 reads from raw file and XMP when it sees an image file the first time, then never again unless you explicitely tell C1 to read again, either manually as I mostly do, or by turning on automatic reload. Speed is my reason for not using automatic reload in C1, but you may find it ok.
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Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Workflow issues when Tagging & Rating files in PM, LR & C1
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2017, 08:04:04 AM »
Here is a test you can do to rule out misbehavior of PM in your scenario:

Copy one of these images that you have in your example to another folder that C1 and LR don't yet know about and make sure to copy any XMP sidecar file.
Browse that folder with PM and change the rating on the file.
Import the image into both C1 and LR.

Do you see your rating in C1 and LR?  If so, then PM is writing out the rating correctly and is not at fault.

HTH,

-Kirk

Offline jolliejay

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Re: Workflow issues when Tagging & Rating files in PM, LR & C1
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2017, 05:36:33 PM »
Thanks for everyone's replies. I have done some testing and found a solution for LR and C1 to handle conflicting metadata whilst jumping around different applications (e.g back and forth between PM & LR or PM & C1)

... LR and C1 won't re-read those (automatically). You'll need to tell the applications to manually do so.

Thanks - this is true for LR. A fix which extends on your solution to retain existing LR edits on any files is as follows
  • Set your metadata to 'Automatically write changes to XMP' under Lightroom > Catalog Settings > Metadata.
  • 'Save metadata to files' (under Metadata in the library module) for all your images which have been edited in the develop module (to retain your edits)
  • 'Read metadata from files' (under Metadata in the library module) if you make any new changes thereafter to metadata outside of LR
Please see https://forums.adobe.com/thread/632598 for in-depth understanding of conflicting metadata with LR & PM

How to do this in C1, I don't know, but it should be possible there too.
...C1 reads from raw file and XMP when it sees an image file the first time, then never again unless you explicitely tell C1 to read again, either manually ... or by turning on automatic reload

I can also confirm that for C1 you can set your metadata to be updated automatically to carry across star ratings, unlike LR where you have to manually update your metadata as mentioned above in step 3.
  • Capture One > Preferences > Images > Metadata, Set Auto sync side car to 'Full sync'
  • Tick 'Prefer sidecar XMP over embedded metadata'

Note, this is to solve my initial problem of rating images in PM after they have been imported into C1 or LR and C1 or LR not being able to 'update' the new metadata
« Last Edit: October 17, 2017, 05:41:41 PM by jolliejay »