Author Topic: PM not seeing images created in Capture One Pro 12 Session  (Read 1132 times)

Offline OldRadioGuy

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PM not seeing images created in Capture One Pro 12 Session
« on: December 31, 2018, 02:35:27 PM »
One of the two methods Capture One uses for management of images it processes is called Sessions. When ingesting images using this method, C1 generates a new folder. Inside that folder are four new sub-folders (Capture, Output, Selects, and Trash) and a database for the session with an extension of .cosessiondb.

I?m just starting to use sessions, and I have discovered PM is not seeing the four sub-folders, nor any images that may be in them (Tested with JPEGs exported with a C1 recipe). Photo Mechanic does show the PM generic thumbnail for the .cosessiondb file.

A search here has turned up nothing related to dealing with C1 Sessions, and I found nothing in the online help file.

I have verified the created C1 Sessions files with Finder, ACDSee Photo Studio 5 for Mac,  and XnViewMP. All of these apps are able to see and read the folders and supported image files present.

(I am running Photo Mechanic 5.0 build 19728, macOS Mojave Version 10.14.2 on an iMac (Retina 5K, 27-inch, 2017). Processor: 4.2 GHz Intel Core i7; Memory 32 GB 2400 MHz DDR4; Radeon 580 8192 MB.)

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: PM not seeing images created in Capture One Pro 12 Session
« Reply #1 on: December 31, 2018, 11:13:25 PM »
One of the two methods Capture One uses for management of images it processes is called Sessions. When ingesting images using this method, C1 generates a new folder. Inside that folder are four new sub-folders (Capture, Output, Selects, and Trash) and a database for the session with an extension of .cosessiondb.

I?m just starting to use sessions, and I have discovered PM is not seeing the four sub-folders, nor any images that may be in them (Tested with JPEGs exported with a C1 recipe). Photo Mechanic does show the PM generic thumbnail for the .cosessiondb file.

A search here has turned up nothing related to dealing with C1 Sessions, and I found nothing in the online help file.

I have verified the created C1 Sessions files with Finder, ACDSee Photo Studio 5 for Mac,  and XnViewMP. All of these apps are able to see and read the folders and supported image files present.

(I am running Photo Mechanic 5.0 build 19728, macOS Mojave Version 10.14.2 on an iMac (Retina 5K, 27-inch, 2017). Processor: 4.2 GHz Intel Core i7; Memory 32 GB 2400 MHz DDR4; Radeon 580 8192 MB.)


You would have to open the folder and subfolders recursively in order for PM to go deeper and search out subfolders of your C1 created folder structure.  In the Navigator (or Favorites if your folders appear there), right-click on the C1-created folder and choose one of the "folder and subfolders" options.

-Kirk

Offline Soizic

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Re: PM not seeing images created in Capture One Pro 12 Session
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2019, 11:50:57 PM »
You would have to open the folder and subfolders recursively in order for PM to go deeper and search out subfolders of your C1 created folder structure.  In the Navigator (or Favorites if your folders appear there), right-click on the C1-created folder and choose one of the "folder and subfolders" options.

I agree with OldRadioGuy,PM is bad for that (so fine for others things !)
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Offline OldRadioGuy

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Re: PM not seeing images created in Capture One Pro 12 Session
« Reply #3 on: January 02, 2019, 07:50:43 AM »

You would have to open the folder and subfolders recursively in order for PM to go deeper and search out subfolders of your C1 created folder structure.  In the Navigator (or Favorites if your folders appear there), right-click on the C1-created folder and choose one of the "folder and subfolders" options.

-Kirk

Unfortunately, this does nothing to solve the problem. Still no images in PM.

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: PM not seeing images created in Capture One Pro 12 Session
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2019, 08:18:29 AM »

You would have to open the folder and subfolders recursively in order for PM to go deeper and search out subfolders of your C1 created folder structure.  In the Navigator (or Favorites if your folders appear there), right-click on the C1-created folder and choose one of the "folder and subfolders" options.

-Kirk

Unfortunately, this does nothing to solve the problem. Still no images in PM.

Could you zip up one of these sessions and make it available for download?  Then I can look into the problem more accurately.

Thanks,

-Kirk

Offline myotis

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Re: PM not seeing images created in Capture One Pro 12 Session
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2019, 09:15:24 AM »
Unfortunately, this does nothing to solve the problem. Still no images in PM.

Opening the folder labelled "Capture"  works for me with PM5 and C1 v12, but on a Mac, should that be important.  It's the Capture folder that C1 uses to store the RAWs in a Session.

UNLESS, you are using a "dummy session" and opening files directly from your system folders into C1 rather than moving them into the session  Capture folder. A dummy session is just one where you create a session, but don't import any files into it, just use C1 to edit the files in place.

So, if you do the former, the RAWs stay where they are and aren't stored in the Session.

This may help explain what is going on.

Offline OldRadioGuy

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Re: PM not seeing images created in Capture One Pro 12 Session
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2019, 11:43:36 AM »

Could you zip up one of these sessions and make it available for download?  Then I can look into the problem more accurately.

Thanks,

-Kirk

Here's a dropbox link:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tl4vivuzaw2d778/2016-05-15%20-%20Fort%20Davis%20-%20E-M1.zip?dl=0

Thanks for your help,

Bob

Offline myotis

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Re: PM not seeing images created in Capture One Pro 12 Session
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2019, 12:55:07 PM »
Here's a dropbox link:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/tl4vivuzaw2d778/2016-05-15%20-%20Fort%20Davis%20-%20E-M1.zip?dl=0

Thanks for your help,

Bob

Just to say these are opening fine here, by clicking on the output folder in PM navigator, which by rereading your original post is where you would expect the output from a C1 session to default to. 

There is nothing in the Capture folder, so I assume you are using the "dummy session" approach I mentioned in my last post, and not a full session.

Cheers,

Graham


Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: PM not seeing images created in Capture One Pro 12 Session
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2019, 02:02:28 PM »
Thanks for the sample folder hierarchy.  Only the Output folder contains images.  If I open the "2016-05-15 - Fort Davis - E-M1" folder from the Navigator by choosing the "Open Folder and Subfolders in new Contact Sheet" from the contextual menu (right-click on the folder in the Navigator), I see the three JPEG images (and a bunch of other files that PM doesn't understand).  If I navigate to the "Output" folder and open it, then I only see the three JPEG images.

If your source images aren't in that folder hierarchy, then PM will have nothing to show.  PM doesn't know anything about C1 Sessions.  It shows you the image and video contents of folders that you have it browse.

HTH,

-Kirk

Offline Odd Skjaeveland

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Re: PM not seeing images created in Capture One Pro 12 Session
« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2019, 10:40:41 PM »
...PM doesn't know anything about C1 Sessions.

Satisfying every possible C1 session folder arrangement may be impossible for PM. The C1 session user can pretty much scatter image files over their disks. C1 does however; come with a default template for a session folder arrangement. The user can design other session folder templates (it may be an somewhat underused feature of C1).

A session is pretty much defined by the existence of a little database file having the file name form <session_name>.cosessiondb as shown in the image in the thread opening post. The user opens an existing session in C1 by navigating to the .cosessiondb file (the session database).

The C1 default session template dictates that the session folder, the folder where the .cosessiondb file is located, has four image sub folders (Capture, Selects, Output and Trash). Depending on how the user arranges a particular session, those image folders may have sub folders. There may also be image folders outside the session folder hierarchy. In fact, there is no need to have images under the umbrella of the session folder at all.  See Graham's posting and note his comment on "dummy session".

A single "dummy session" saves a little disk space because the user only needs one session, images can be in any folder structure outside that dummy session folder where the dummy.cosessiondb is located. Some C1 users are annoyed by the C1 session specific folders and files and want to see only one session folder instance which is the minimum set of C1 session files and folders that they can not avoid. Images can then be stored at will. The user opens the dummy session, points C1 to the next image folder to be included in the dummy session. C1 updates the dummy.cosessiondb accordingly. Personally, I do not use a dummy session.

A typical session along the lines of the C1 default session template, starts out with all source images in the Capture folder (or in sub folders). Source image files are potentially moved from Capture to the Selects folder or to the Trash folder. Image files created by C1, meaning exporting source images with C1 adjustments burned in, go to the Output folder (or sub folders), but it depends largely on how the user has set up recipes for export. I may use multiple recipes in parallel for additional export to folders outside the session.

I use C1 sessions, and PM is always my front end where I ingest and create a session-folder-to-be with one sub folder named Capture. That is part of my ingest setups, I pick one setup via the lightning bolt.  My image files ingest directly to a folder inside the Capture folder. The session-folder-to-be is still not a C1 session, there is no .cosessiondb. C1 creates the .cosessiondb and the Selects, Output, Trash folders when I create a new session in C1 and feed it the name of the session-folder-to-be created by PM ingest if it did not exist.

If we stick to the C1 default session template, I can select the session folder in PM and have it open sub folders to see images in Capture, Selects, Output and Trash in one contact sheet. I rarely do that, but I may occasionally select the Capture folder and include its sub folders. There are normally no images in my Capture folder, I keep images in sub folders of Capture. I usually just point PM directly to a Capture image sub folder. BUT! This may vary greatly among C1 session users.

If PM is to "understand" C1 sessions in the general sense and open all session image thumbnails in a contact sheet, I believe PM must find them via the session database (the .cosessiondb file), looking at session folder and sub folder hierarchy will not do.

If PM is to show image thumbnails for C1 sessions strictly limited to the C1 default template (the session folder's image sub folders again), a potential solution would be a tick box for "always include images in all sub and sub sub... folders". A C1 session folder may have more sub folders than the four default folders (Capture, Selects, Output and Trash), but they would at least be in the session folder. PM could perhaps warn the user with a Yes/No dialog "The contact sheet needs to retrieve X tens of thousands thumbnails, are you sure?" X being a user preference image count.

A user preference setting "always include images in sub and sub sub... folders" could perhaps fit the needs of the thread opener and perhaps also Soizic, and it could be a general thing without PM knowing anything about C1 sessions.

A more elaborate solution could potentially let the PM user define a set (multiple sets?) of sibling folder names (say Capture, Selects) and the "always include images in sub and sub sub... folders" could use a defined set rather than "all" when opening a new contact sheet.  Pointing PM to a session folder (more generally to any "root" folder) could then present thumbnails for images in the root folder and hierarchies in the predefined named sub folders (Capture, Selects,...). Again, that would not be a C1 specific feature, but more like a contact showing images in a clicked root folder and sub folders according to a fixed folder naming scheme. Potentially useful outside C1.

I hope the thread opener OldRadioGuy, Soizic and other C1 users can join forces to elaborate a bit on what functionality could be implemented in PM to make it somewhat more C1-friendly without breaking the PM concept and not requiring very C1 specific features.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2019, 10:48:10 PM by Odd Skjaeveland »
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Offline myotis

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Re: PM not seeing images created in Capture One Pro 12 Session
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2019, 11:46:15 PM »

If we stick to the C1 default session template, I can select the session folder in PM and have it open sub folders to see images in Capture, Selects, Output and Trash in one contact sheet. I rarely do that, but I may occasionally select the Capture folder and include its sub folders. There are normally no images in my Capture folder, I keep images in sub folders of Capture. I usually just point PM directly to a Capture image sub folder. BUT! This may vary greatly among C1 session users.

I have multiple sessions with the Raws imported into the Capture folder.   The session top level folder is a favourite in PM and I just manually navigate to whichever session and folder I want to look at. I work with the default session structure, just because I haven't got round to customising it.

Using PM as a browser for C1 sessions seems fine to me. BUT given the increasing popularity of C1, it would be useful if PM6 could catalogue sessions and then some of the things you mention would be important.

Sessions are an interim step for me. I have a main collection of (catalogued) RAW files, from which I select images to work on, these are "copied" into a session, so I have a complete project of raws, edited images etc contained in a single collection for archiving.   The final output files are then 'copied" out of the session into a Finals collection that contains all my final images and this collection is catalogued. I realise this creates some duplication, but this is part of my backup strategy.

So with PM6, I really only need to catalogue the RAW collection and the FINAL collection, and happy to continue browsing specific session folders with PM.   

However, I'm not saying it wouldn't be useful for PM to be more C1 session aware.  Assuming that you can manually select which folders you want catalogued by PM6, I wonder if its actually as simple as just selecting the specific session folders you want included in the catalogue.

Cheers,

Graham

Offline Soizic

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Re: PM not seeing images created in Capture One Pro 12 Session
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2019, 01:21:25 AM »
Sorry, my English is bad, I just say what I see :

Mac Mojave, C1 V12,PM-19728  a session with RAW in Capture, somme pictures selected (those who are finish, a few in BW)

In Select, finder show thumbnails *.cot, I see a picture (color and BW)
PM shows only a grey square with name

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Offline Odd Skjaeveland

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Re: PM not seeing images created in Capture One Pro 12 Session
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2019, 01:34:53 AM »
...However, I'm not saying it wouldn't be useful for PM to be more C1 session aware.

Hi there Graham,
I rather hope PM can stay C1 unaware. My suggestions targeted a general root folder with all or user preset named sub folder hierarchies and on/off tick mark to toggle between today's concept and one that would potentially play better with C1 for some users and with any other general image-root-folder-and hierarchy concept in use. I very much doubt that general C1 session awareness is possible without dealing with C1 database files. (Moving target and a project with no end to it).

There are many ways to skin a cat. You use C1 catalogs, I don't and my way of dealing with sessions may differ from yours. 
I guess I will need a catalog, but it is not going to be the C1 catalog. Multiple reasons, but I do not want my image post processing application to also be my image catalog application (I dislike the binding, I use more than one image post processing application) . I will check PM6 before I decide on what to do and I am prepared to wait quite a while longer. To me, the direction PM6 will take me is far more important than actual catalog features that come with the first release.

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Offline myotis

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Re: PM not seeing images created in Capture One Pro 12 Session
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2019, 01:54:54 AM »
...However, I'm not saying it wouldn't be useful for PM to be more C1 session aware.

Hi there Graham,
I rather hope PM can stay C1 unaware.

Actually, I don't use C1 catalogues (I do have one as an experiment, but don't use it) , and my C1 awareness was assuming a PM6 catalogue combined with C1 sessions containing either RAWs, or outputed (if that's a word) TIFFS/JPegs. I was a bit vague on what the awareness should be as I hadn't given it much thought. Even Phase One weren't able to make their Catalogue program C1 aware in terms of the C1 catalogue, but it sort of works with Sessions, until they discontinued it.

I have always preferred to keep the cataloguing independent of the processing, and have gone through a few different catalogue programs, hoping to finally settle on PM6.  But I have always had some kind of catalogue.

Cheers,

Graham

Offline OldRadioGuy

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Re: PM not seeing images created in Capture One Pro 12 Session
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2019, 11:21:17 AM »
Odd S., thank you for the detailed explanation and recommendations on C1 Sessions. Not sure now whether I'll stick with C1, but PM will definitely be at the front end of my work session.

Bob