Author Topic: Turn Off ON1 Sidecar Files  (Read 1017 times)

Offline OldRadioGuy

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Turn Off ON1 Sidecar Files
« on: April 23, 2019, 03:46:38 PM »
Not new to PM Plus, but it seems a greater nuisance now that a catalog function is involved. Please, can there be a way to prevent PM Plus from generating the .ON1 sidecar files produced by ON1 Photo RAW? For those of us who have turned to an alternative to Lightroom, this would be a big help.

Thanks.

Bob

Offline Hayo Baan

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Re: Turn Off ON1 Sidecar Files
« Reply #1 on: April 23, 2019, 04:40:12 PM »
Just deselect “Unknown files as proxies” in the View menu. That will get rid of those files (was like this in PM5 also).
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Offline OldRadioGuy

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Re: Turn Off ON1 Sidecar Files
« Reply #2 on: April 23, 2019, 06:45:26 PM »
Thanks for that tip, Hayo.

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Turn Off ON1 Sidecar Files
« Reply #3 on: April 23, 2019, 08:56:57 PM »
Thanks for that tip, Hayo.

I will add the on1 extension to our list of extensions for RAW files so that they're associated with their corresponding RAW file and will be renamed when the RAW file is renamed, copied/moved/deleted when the RAW file is copied/moved/deleted.

Those files aren't created for JPEGs or TIFFs, are they?

-Kirk

Offline OldRadioGuy

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Re: Turn Off ON1 Sidecar Files
« Reply #4 on: April 27, 2019, 05:55:02 PM »

I will add the on1 extension to our list of extensions for RAW files so that they're associated with their corresponding RAW file and will be renamed when the RAW file is renamed, copied/moved/deleted when the RAW file is copied/moved/deleted.

Those files aren't created for JPEGs or TIFFs, are they?

-Kirk

No, they are not.

And thank you, Kirk, for making this change.

Bob
« Last Edit: April 27, 2019, 06:19:52 PM by OldRadioGuy »

Offline carlseibert

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Re: Turn Off ON1 Sidecar Files
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2019, 04:18:24 PM »
Quote
I will add the on1 extension to our list of extensions for RAW files so that they're associated with their corresponding RAW file and will be renamed when the RAW file is renamed, copied/moved/deleted when the RAW file is copied/moved/deleted.

I too use ON1 RAW and this is greatly appreciated.

BTW, ON1 RAW reads and writes standards-compliant metadata and interoperates just fine with Photo Mechanic.

Offline carlseibert

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Re: Turn Off ON1 Sidecar Files
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2019, 08:17:43 AM »
Quote
Those files aren't created for JPEGs or TIFFs, are they?

Hi Kirk,

Sorry! This slipped by me.

Yes, .ON1 files are created for any file on which ON1 has performed any action, down to and including reading copyright info out of the Exif. So, according to ON1's Zendesk, the supported file types are:

TIFF.
PSD (saved with Maximum Compatibility)
PSB (Photoshop Large Document Format)
JPG.
PNG.
Apple HEIC.

-Carl

Offline OldRadioGuy

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Re: Turn Off ON1 Sidecar Files
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2019, 11:47:56 AM »
Quote
Those files aren't created for JPEGs or TIFFs, are they?

Hi Kirk,

Sorry! This slipped by me.

Yes, .ON1 files are created for any file on which ON1 has performed any action, down to and including reading copyright info out of the Exif. So, according to ON1's Zendesk, the supported file types are:

TIFF.
PSD (saved with Maximum Compatibility)
PSB (Photoshop Large Document Format)
JPG.
PNG.
Apple HEIC.

-Carl

And ON1's new file standard ONPHOTO, which is used by ON1 Photo RAW only.

Bob

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Turn Off ON1 Sidecar Files
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2019, 02:19:35 PM »
Carl,

Quote
Those files aren't created for JPEGs or TIFFs, are they?
Yes, .ON1 files are created for any file on which ON1 has performed any action, down to and including reading copyright info out of the Exif. So, according to ON1's Zendesk, the supported file types are:

TIFF.
PSD (saved with Maximum Compatibility)
PSB (Photoshop Large Document Format)
JPG.
PNG.
Apple HEIC.

Thanks.  I'm going to make it able to be attached to all file types that PM supports.

-Kirk

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Turn Off ON1 Sidecar Files
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2019, 02:20:44 PM »
Bob,

Quote
Those files aren't created for JPEGs or TIFFs, are they?
Yes, .ON1 files are created for any file on which ON1 has performed any action, down to and including reading copyright info out of the Exif. So, according to ON1's Zendesk, the supported file types are:

TIFF.
PSD (saved with Maximum Compatibility)
PSB (Photoshop Large Document Format)
JPG.
PNG.
Apple HEIC.

And ON1's new file standard ONPHOTO, which is used by ON1 Photo RAW only.

Is that file added to only edited RAW files or are there other file types that it should be associated with?

-Kirk

Offline carlseibert

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Re: Turn Off ON1 Sidecar Files
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2019, 03:45:06 PM »
-Bob - Ooops. Good catch.

-Kirk - .onphoto is ON1's equivalent to .PSD.  You can only make one by adding layers to an existing image. Weirdly, .onphotos don't seem to have their own .on1s or .xmp if they exist in the same folder as their ancestor files. But, when I copy one to a new folder, or rename it, it has both a .on1 and a .xmp of its own.

In other words, until they are renamed or moved, they seem to use their parent's .on1 and .xmp

If an onphoto is on its own, then .on1s and .xmps with the same name would be sidecars to it. If an onphoto is living with its parents (a millennial file? :-), its sidecars would be the parent's .on1 and .xmp. But, if you moved the sidecars along with the .onphoto, it would seem you would be breaking the relationship between the parent files and its sidecars.

It's been a long week and this is making my brain hurt.

Maybe a call to ON1 would be in order. I know a guy there if that would help. If I can help figure this out (after a good night's sleep), please reach out.

-Carl


Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Turn Off ON1 Sidecar Files
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2019, 04:21:27 PM »
Carl,

-Kirk - .onphoto is ON1's equivalent to .PSD.  You can only make one by adding layers to an existing image. Weirdly, .onphotos don't seem to have their own .on1s or .xmp if they exist in the same folder as their ancestor files. But, when I copy one to a new folder, or rename it, it has both a .on1 and a .xmp of its own.

In other words, until they are renamed or moved, they seem to use their parent's .on1 and .xmp

If an onphoto is on its own, then .on1s and .xmps with the same name would be sidecars to it. If an onphoto is living with its parents (a millennial file? :-), its sidecars would be the parent's .on1 and .xmp. But, if you moved the sidecars along with the .onphoto, it would seem you would be breaking the relationship between the parent files and its sidecars.

It's been a long week and this is making my brain hurt.

Maybe a call to ON1 would be in order. I know a guy there if that would help. If I can help figure this out (after a good night's sleep), please reach out.

It's sounding like PM should simply ignore .onphoto files altogether?

-Kirk

Offline carlseibert

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Re: Turn Off ON1 Sidecar Files
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2019, 01:56:05 PM »
That might work. Or maybe acting on RAWs and onphotos as pairs - see below.

I went back and tried to make my experiment more rigorous, to try to isolate sidecar behavior from the behavior of ON1 RAW's live database.

If I start with a RAW file and edit it, then add a layer to make an onphoto, I end up with four files: a RAW, an on1, an xmp, and an onphoto.
If I leave ON1 RAW running and remove the RAW, on1 and xmp files, a new on1 is generated for the onphoto and all is well. *

If I quit ON1 RAW and remove those files, no on1 file is generated for the onphoto. When I then go back to the onphoto, it retains its edits (from the database, I assume.)

If I then move the onphoto to a new folder - it does not retain its edits. If I reunite all the files in the new folder, the onphoto regains its edits. (And the RAW retains its edits).

From this, I conclude that the onphoto's edits are carried in the parent RAW's on1 file.

If, on the other hand, I rename the onphoto in the first step above, or go back to it after removing the parent's on1 file and make an edit to it, a new on1 file is created for the onphoto and it appears to become independently portable.

So, it would appear that the risk is if a RAW and its sidecars are moved or deleted while ON1 RAW is not running, a related onphoto could lose its edits.

I'm not sure what could be done about that - throw an error if the user tries to act on a RAW file when an onphoto of the same name is deteced? Seems complicated at best.

If ON1 RAW simply always wrote an independent on1 file for each onphoto, it would seem to me that the issue would go away. They might be willing to do that. I would think it would make things more stable for them generally.

Maybe if Photo Mechanic acted on all four files if an onphoto was detected and threw a warning that informed the user that onphotos and their RAWs were treated as pairs, like RAWs and JPEGs? Does that seem like it would work?**

And maybe that phone call to your opposite number at ON1 might be a good idea indeed.

As complicated as it is,  this might be an issue for another day. As much as I personally would personally love to be able to move or delete files paired with their ON1 sidecars.



* The onphoto's IPTC metadata appears to be in its on1 file. Onphotos don't seem to care one way or the other about .xmp files.

** An onphoto seems to be related only to a single parent RAW. Layers subsequent to the first one - that came from the "parent" raw - seem to basically be copies of the RAWs from whence they came, stored in the onphoto.

****It would be great if somebody would try to replicate my results. There are a lot of variables and gobs of ways I could be off the tracks here. ******



Offline carlseibert

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Re: Turn Off ON1 Sidecar Files
« Reply #13 on: June 26, 2019, 04:07:57 PM »
Hi Kirk,

Quote
• .ON1 files can now be associated with any image file type.

Sounds like you came up with a clever solution. (In the new PM6 build) But I'm not seeing where it is in the interface???

-Carl

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Turn Off ON1 Sidecar Files
« Reply #14 on: June 26, 2019, 04:16:15 PM »
Carl,

Quote
• .ON1 files can now be associated with any image file type.

Sounds like you came up with a clever solution. (In the new PM6 build) But I'm not seeing where it is in the interface???

They're automatically associated with various file types.  But if you don't use ON1 products, then you can ignore them by deactivating them in the "Associated File Types" dialog in the Files section of the Preferences dialog.  See attached.

-Kirk