Author Topic: Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?  (Read 2459 times)

Offline Rob Hedge

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I have the trial version of PM including its new catalogue feature. I am tying to understand the benefits, if any, of having a Capture One catalogue and a PM catalogue that overlap. The two catalogues would mostly cover the same photos because I’m conservative about how many photos I take and I’m ruthless about culling. I’m also trying to understand the workflow implications of having overlapping catalogues.

I don’t see anything in the PM Knowledge Base, or on PM’s YouTube channel, that addresses these questions. For me, these are fundamental questions and I’d appreciate any answers. I'm likely to purchase PM, but I don't understand the implications and argument for Plus.

In case it matters, my Capture One catalogues refer to, but don’t contain, my photos. The catalogues and the photos are in separate places.

Thanks very much.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2020, 07:40:37 AM by Rob Hedge »
Processing: MacOS Catalina 10.15.7, Photo Mechanic 5216 (bafac3a), Capture One 20

File Formats: Leica DNG, Apple HEIC, TIFF, Sony RAW, JPEG, MOV

Online Kirk Baker

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Re: Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2020, 09:21:25 AM »
I have the trial version of PM including its new catalogue feature. I am tying to understand the benefits, if any, of having a Capture One catalogue and a PM catalogue that overlap. The two catalogues would mostly cover the same photos because I’m conservative about how many photos I take and I’m ruthless about culling. I’m also trying to understand the workflow implications of having overlapping catalogues.

I don’t see anything in the PM Knowledge Base, or on PM’s YouTube channel, that addresses these questions. For me, these are fundamental questions and I’d appreciate any answers. I'm likely to purchase PM, but I don't understand the implications and argument for Plus.

We think our cataloging solution is superior to theirs.  If you're using Photo Mechanic Plus as the hub for your workflow, then you'd be using C1 for its ability to adjust your photos only.  I see no benefit in maintaining two catalogs.

If you have specific questions about functionality in Photo Mechanic Plus, please feel free to ask.

-Kirk

Offline Rob Hedge

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Re: Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2020, 09:39:35 AM »
Hi Kirk,

Are you saying that I can process photos in Capture One without having a catalogue/session, and use a PM+ catalogue as my sole catalogue? If that's possible, great, but it isn't obvious how one does it.
Processing: MacOS Catalina 10.15.7, Photo Mechanic 5216 (bafac3a), Capture One 20

File Formats: Leica DNG, Apple HEIC, TIFF, Sony RAW, JPEG, MOV

Online Kirk Baker

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Re: Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2020, 10:32:39 AM »
Rob,

Are you saying that I can process photos in Capture One without having a catalogue/session, and use a PM+ catalogue as my sole catalogue? If that's possible, great, but it isn't obvious how one does it.

I have no idea whether C1 forces you to use catalogs or sessions to edit a single image.  Perhaps some other C1 users can respond?

I don't have any experience with C1 beyond trying it once a number of years ago on a trial.

-Kirk

Offline Rob Hedge

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Re: Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2020, 11:34:47 AM »
Hi,

The same issue arises with Adobe Lightroom, which I also use. Are you able to comment on my questions with respect to that programme?
Processing: MacOS Catalina 10.15.7, Photo Mechanic 5216 (bafac3a), Capture One 20

File Formats: Leica DNG, Apple HEIC, TIFF, Sony RAW, JPEG, MOV

Online Kirk Baker

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Re: Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2020, 11:59:56 AM »
Rob,

The same issue arises with Adobe Lightroom, which I also use. Are you able to comment on my questions with respect to that programme?

Same for Lightroom.  We think our cataloging solution is superior to Lightroom as well.  Lightroom is another all-in-one application and can't do anything with images that haven't been imported into it.  There isn't any way that I know of to use it solely as RAW adjustment tool.  You'd just have to go with the flow so that you can adjust your images and ignore the catalog aspects of the application.

A lot of Photo Mechanic users (Plus users too) use a RAW adjustment tool like Photoshop's Adobe Camera RAW feature to adjust their images and don't use the all-in-one apps.

-Kirk

Offline Rob Hedge

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Re: Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2020, 12:23:05 PM »
Thanks, "ignoring" duplicate/overlapping catalogues is not an approach that interests me. As you said above "I see no benefit in maintaining two catalogs."

It sounds like the only way to avoid this is to use Plus with Adobe Bridge/Photoshop and Camera RAW instead of Lightroom or Capture One.

Thanks for your time.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2020, 01:22:32 PM by Rob Hedge »
Processing: MacOS Catalina 10.15.7, Photo Mechanic 5216 (bafac3a), Capture One 20

File Formats: Leica DNG, Apple HEIC, TIFF, Sony RAW, JPEG, MOV

Offline Soizic

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Re: Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2020, 10:20:27 PM »
Hi Kirk,

Are you saying that I can process photos in Capture One without having a catalogue/session, and use a PM+ catalogue as my sole catalogue? If that's possible, great, but it isn't obvious how one does it.
`

I work with C1 sessions. I had tried their catalog but the use of keywords  resulted in a strong slowdown.
I keep my sessions and save them.
 PM+ manages all my jpg impeccably.

Kirk, C1 (like DXO) always opens the folder with the image you want to modify.
Soizic (France)
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Offline Rob Hedge

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Re: Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2020, 03:23:57 AM »
Hi Kirk,

Are you saying that I can process photos in Capture One without having a catalogue/session, and use a PM+ catalogue as my sole catalogue? If that's possible, great, but it isn't obvious how one does it.
`

I work with C1 sessions. I had tried their catalog but the use of keywords  resulted in a strong slowdown.
I keep my sessions and save them.
 PM+ manages all my jpg impeccably.

In Capture One, a Session is a Catalogue restricted to either a single shoot or related shoots. For the purpose of my question, which is about duplication/overlap between Capture One and Photo Mechanic Plus, there is no difference between them. It’s now clear that it isn’t possible to use Photo Mechanic Plus with Capture One, or for that matter Lightroom, without duplication. This has organisational and storage implications that don’t interest me. I agree with Kirk when he says “I see no benefit in maintaining two catalogs."

Earlier in this thread, Kirk says that many of his clients use Adobe Bridge/Photoshop/Camera Raw. I am in the process of moving from Adobe to Capture One because I prefer Capture One as a Raw processor. That is probably the number one reason why people move to Capture One. Using Bridge/Photoshop with PM+ to avoid duplication would require reversing the decision that I just made.

I’m now evaluating basic Photo Mechanic as a tool for writing metadata on import and for choosing what imported images to process.
« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 04:38:21 AM by Rob Hedge »
Processing: MacOS Catalina 10.15.7, Photo Mechanic 5216 (bafac3a), Capture One 20

File Formats: Leica DNG, Apple HEIC, TIFF, Sony RAW, JPEG, MOV

Offline Dub

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Re: Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2020, 04:36:59 AM »
A lot of people use PM6+ with C1 without C1's catalog, so, a priori you should get better information...
As for Adobe, which I use, PM6+ makes a wonderful couple with Camera Raw + PS2021, why get complicated with LR, or Bridge, on top of that ?
The simplest is often the most efficient...

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Offline Rob Hedge

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Re: Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2020, 04:43:18 AM »
A lot of people use PM6+ with C1 without C1's catalog, so, a priori you should get better information...
As for Adobe, which I use, PM6+ makes a wonderful couple with Camera Raw + PS2021, why get complicated with LR, or Bridge, on top of that ?
The simplest is often the most efficient...

My2cts  ;)

Thanks,

As discussed earlier in this thread, it is not possible to use Capture One without a Catalogue/Session.

As stated in the post immediately above yours, I am in the process of moving to Capture One because I prefer it to Adobe for Raw processing.
Processing: MacOS Catalina 10.15.7, Photo Mechanic 5216 (bafac3a), Capture One 20

File Formats: Leica DNG, Apple HEIC, TIFF, Sony RAW, JPEG, MOV

Offline Stephen_C

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Re: Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?
« Reply #11 on: October 21, 2020, 04:45:00 AM »
I am a mere amateur photographer and suspect I take far fewer photos than most here. I use both Capture One and PM+ and, for what it's worth, these are my views.

Capture One is an excellent RAW processor (I moved to it when Lightroom changed to subscription). The aspect I find trying is that all processing options are saved within the Capture One catalogue (although there is an option to create sidecar xmp files, of course).

I use PM+ (previously PM) to ingest and apply metadata to my files—because, in my view, there is nothing better. However, I find PM+ superb for cataloguing and finding my photos. It has infinitely better search and browse facilities than does Capture One and is very fast.

I appreciate this will not persuade anyone set on avoiding having two catalogues but, for me, it's just a matter of "horses for courses". Sometimes I just need to find something quickly and what would take an age in Capture One (if, indeed, it were possible at all) takes moments in PM+.

Stephen

Offline Rob Hedge

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Re: Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?
« Reply #12 on: October 21, 2020, 05:32:08 AM »
I appreciate this will not persuade anyone set on avoiding having two catalogues

I am not going to pay for, maintain and spend time using two applications so that I can have two original catalogues, including preview files, and two backups of each catalogue, covering my entire collection of photographs.

If you’ve persuaded yourself that that’s a good idea, go for it.

I’ll continue evaluating basic Photo Mechanic. Because I use Leica cameras, one of the things that I have to address is communication between Capture One and PM on metadata for DNG files. Not sure yet how well that works.

« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 08:20:32 AM by Rob Hedge »
Processing: MacOS Catalina 10.15.7, Photo Mechanic 5216 (bafac3a), Capture One 20

File Formats: Leica DNG, Apple HEIC, TIFF, Sony RAW, JPEG, MOV

Offline Stephen_C

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Re: Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?
« Reply #13 on: October 21, 2020, 08:41:28 AM »
Because I use Leica cameras, one of the things that I have to address is communication between Capture One and PM on metadata for DNG files. Not sure yet how well that works.

I use a Leica Q2 and, for what it's worth (accepting your needs may be more sophisticated than mine) I add all the relevant IPTC metadata in PM, which PM will embed in the DNG files (unlike Capture One, which won't touch them). After that I ingest the files into Capture One (which then reads that metadata), renaming the files in the process, and then process them in Capture One.

Obviously that does mean that if you change any of the IPTC metadata in Capture One you either need to update the metadata manually in PM or write an xmp sidecar file and have PM update from that.

The whole thing is not particularly elegant but I've not yet found a better way of doing it.

Stephen

Offline Rob Hedge

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Re: Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?
« Reply #14 on: October 21, 2020, 09:19:11 AM »
Because I use Leica cameras, one of the things that I have to address is communication between Capture One and PM on metadata for DNG files. Not sure yet how well that works.

I use a Leica Q2 and, for what it's worth (accepting your needs may be more sophisticated than mine) I add all the relevant IPTC metadata in PM, which PM will embed in the DNG files (unlike Capture One, which won't touch them). After that I ingest the files into Capture One (which then reads that metadata), renaming the files in the process, and then process them in Capture One.

Obviously that does mean that if you change any of the IPTC metadata in Capture One you either need to update the metadata manually in PM or write an xmp sidecar file and have PM update from that.

The whole thing is not particularly elegant but I've not yet found a better way of doing it.

Stephen

Thanks, I'm in the process of figuring this out now. As you suggest, Capture One reflects metadata written in Photo Mechanic, but not, it appears, the other way around. Right clicking on an image in Capture One and selecting Sync Metadata does not result in PM reflecting the addition. Sounds like you found the same. You may have just saved me a few hours pursuing something that can't be done.

However, I'm probably OK with one-way sync. What I like about PM is the greater screen real estate for inputting metadata and features like the "Structured Keywords Panel". I just see it as a cleaner metadata work environment.

Also, it seems like a good environment for making a preliminary cut. Maybe because I also shoot film and process my own, I'm pretty ruthless when it comes to deciding what I'm going to work on in Capture One and deleting the rest. If I can get rid of images that I think are marginal or worse before they ever get to Capture One, I'm all for it.

[EDIT: I've gone ahead and purchased Photo Mechanic. Far from convinced on Plus.]

« Last Edit: October 21, 2020, 11:11:56 AM by Rob Hedge »
Processing: MacOS Catalina 10.15.7, Photo Mechanic 5216 (bafac3a), Capture One 20

File Formats: Leica DNG, Apple HEIC, TIFF, Sony RAW, JPEG, MOV