Author Topic: PM syncing metadata with Capture One  (Read 1064 times)

Offline Jamie

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PM syncing metadata with Capture One
« on: October 20, 2020, 09:39:20 AM »
Greetings,

I am trying to get PM to work with Capture One. I would like a set-up where metadata changes made in either program are synced with the other (after the ingest process). I am working with Leica DNG RAW files (no JPEGS). (*)  I have the latest PM build (5216 (bafac3a)).

I have tried virtually all combinations of metadata settings in the two programs. It appears that PM is not interacting with the XMP sidecar.  I have verified with TextEdit that changes made in C1 are written to the sidecar. (I have tested with a combination of star ratings, color tag and text in the Description field.).

Because PM can embed in the DNG, changes in PM do appear in C1 (with the setting below). But, no what combination of settings I try, I cannot get PM to show changes made by C1. The PM function "Update IPTC/XMP…" does nothing in this case (as far as I can tell).

I have set C1 to "Full Sync" with "Prefer Embedded XMP over embedded IPTC" checked, but "Prefer Sidecar XMP over Embedded Metadata" not checked. This brings changes in PM to C1, presumably because PM writes to the DNG.  (If I do check the latter, nothing is transferred, because PM is not writing to the sidecar.)

Am I missing something? Any advice?

My thanks in advance.

Cheers,
Jamie

(*) I am aware that C1 applies a perhaps overly cautious approach to RAW files.


Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: PM syncing metadata with Capture One
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2020, 10:29:51 AM »
Jamie,

I am trying to get PM to work with Capture One. I would like a set-up where metadata changes made in either program are synced with the other (after the ingest process). I am working with Leica DNG RAW files (no JPEGS). (*)  I have the latest PM build (5216 (bafac3a)).

I have tried virtually all combinations of metadata settings in the two programs. It appears that PM is not interacting with the XMP sidecar.  I have verified with TextEdit that changes made in C1 are written to the sidecar. (I have tested with a combination of star ratings, color tag and text in the Description field.).

Because PM can embed in the DNG, changes in PM do appear in C1 (with the setting below). But, no what combination of settings I try, I cannot get PM to show changes made by C1. The PM function "Update IPTC/XMP…" does nothing in this case (as far as I can tell).

I have set C1 to "Full Sync" with "Prefer Embedded XMP over embedded IPTC" checked, but "Prefer Sidecar XMP over Embedded Metadata" not checked. This brings changes in PM to C1, presumably because PM writes to the DNG.  (If I do check the latter, nothing is transferred, because PM is not writing to the sidecar.)

Am I missing something? Any advice?

PM is always going to write XMP into DNG files and it will always read XMP from DNG files and it will always ignore XMP sidecar files that have the same base name as the DNG file.  If you can get C1 to do the same then the two applications should work together.

XMP sidecar files are not used with DNG files.  While DNG is a RAW format, it is completely documented and readily stores XMP metadata.  There is no reason to create or associate an XMP sidecar file with a DNG file.

-Kirk

Offline Jamie

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Re: PM syncing metadata with Capture One
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2020, 01:26:55 PM »
Hi Kirk,

thanks for your response, which fully explains my experience. That means, my options are kinda limited.

C1 has long refused to write to RAW files, whether DNG or otherwise.  I think they are being overly cautious, but from what I have read, this is a sacred cow in Copenhagen.  Since PM doesn't read/write to sidecars with DNGs, the most that can happen is a one-way PM to C1 communication via embedded data.

I had hoped for two-way sync, so that I could cull/tag/ingest in PM, then work on the RAW files in C1, updating the metadata in C1 along the way, for example changing star rating or moving the color from yellow (= to process) to green (done).  But, if those changes are not seen in PM, I would have to go back to PM to do them.  Starts to become cumbersome.  Maybe I'll just use PM for some simple ingesting and leave it at that.

I can also see the syncing challenges, if PM is reading and writing to two places (the sidecar and the DNG) unless it can be certain of the other program's behavior.  But, if the two companies could work together for a seemless workflow (incl. two-way sync), the users of each product would flock to the other.

I see there is a feature request area.  I'll post it there for the sake of completeness.

Cheers,
Jamie

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: PM syncing metadata with Capture One
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2020, 03:50:56 PM »
Jamie,

thanks for your response, which fully explains my experience. That means, my options are kinda limited.

C1 has long refused to write to RAW files, whether DNG or otherwise.  I think they are being overly cautious, but from what I have read, this is a sacred cow in Copenhagen.  Since PM doesn't read/write to sidecars with DNGs, the most that can happen is a one-way PM to C1 communication via embedded data.

I had hoped for two-way sync, so that I could cull/tag/ingest in PM, then work on the RAW files in C1, updating the metadata in C1 along the way, for example changing star rating or moving the color from yellow (= to process) to green (done).  But, if those changes are not seen in PM, I would have to go back to PM to do them.  Starts to become cumbersome.  Maybe I'll just use PM for some simple ingesting and leave it at that.

I can also see the syncing challenges, if PM is reading and writing to two places (the sidecar and the DNG) unless it can be certain of the other program's behavior.  But, if the two companies could work together for a seemless workflow (incl. two-way sync), the users of each product would flock to the other.

I see there is a feature request area.  I'll post it there for the sake of completeness.

The folks in Copenhagen should be writing XMP into DNG files.  It's the standard.  Adobe does it, Photo Mechanic does it, there are probably others that do so as well.

-Kirk

Offline Rob Hedge

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Re: PM syncing metadata with Capture One
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2020, 05:54:17 AM »
Hi Jamie,


if you haven't seen it, you may find it useful (or not) to look at this article: https://imagealchemist.net/sync-metadata-between-photo-mechanic-and-capture-one/
Processing: MacOS Catalina 10.15.7, Photo Mechanic 5216 (bafac3a), Capture One 20

File Formats: Leica DNG, Apple HEIC, TIFF, Sony RAW, JPEG, MOV

Offline Jamie

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Re: PM syncing metadata with Capture One
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2020, 02:37:12 PM »
Hi Rob,

thanks.  Yes, I know it. I stumbled upon it last week and that, plus the introduction of PM+'s catalogue, gave me the impetus to try PM+C1 again.  Alas, as you can see from the thread, were between a rock and and hard place for a two-way sync, at least for DNG files. (Can't say for others.) 

I am trying some one-way scenarios now: Ingest and geotag with PM, the rest in C1.  I was hopeful with the PM+ Catalogue, but without two-way sync, it will never work to fit my workflow. (So, I am sticking with PM6, which I already have licensed.)  I discovered some cool aspects in PM today using code replacements and variables along with the geotagging features. So, it's worthing going forward with a one-way workflow. I've got about 8 years invested in C1-managed pictures. And, given C1's strengths in RAW processing (which is for me the heart of the matter), I have no interest in changing.

I am in the process of writing up a feature request for PM (and will do the same for C1).  I would think it would make a good business opportunity for them to solve this conundrum. The cataloguing/metadata capabilities of PM+ and the RAW processing of C1 together would be hard to beat.

Cheers,
Jamie

P.S. I saw your post on the C1 & PM cataloguing question. You will always have to have a catalogue file in C1 (but you don't have to use it actively).  If you want to catalogue in PM, and process RAW in C1, you'll probably run into another stumbling block: The triggers in PM to open an image in C1 are either drag&drop or "edit with".  These actions always open the import box in C1, as if starting with a new image.  You need to set C1 just right to avoid duplicating the file.  I want to go directly to the C1 image in the catalogue in the last state that I left it, so that I can start further edits.  I haven't even tried a scenario with variants.  That would likely mean that the two catalogues would have to talk to each other. I doubt either company has that on its strategy whiteboard.  Too bad for us.

Offline Rob Hedge

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Re: PM syncing metadata with Capture One
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2020, 07:13:50 AM »
Hi Jamie,

I really appreciate your posts above. I'm new to Capture One and they have saved me time chasing functionality that apparently doesn't exist. I've now purchased PM6, having decided that I'm OK with entering all metadata in PM. I don't process enough images in Capture One that two-way sync is an issue for me. I've also decided to pass on PM Plus. For me, it doesn't make sense to maintain two catalogues and sets of previews, plus backups. However, I'll check this thread occasionally out of curiosity about whether you make progress on the catalogue front.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2020, 07:33:50 AM by Rob Hedge »
Processing: MacOS Catalina 10.15.7, Photo Mechanic 5216 (bafac3a), Capture One 20

File Formats: Leica DNG, Apple HEIC, TIFF, Sony RAW, JPEG, MOV

Offline DaveG

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Re: PM syncing metadata with Capture One
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2020, 07:29:18 PM »
Maybe I'm missing something but I use PM to ingest, cull and caption Canon Raw files.  I create a folder with the selects and then have Capture One just look at that folder (50 images rather than 2000!).  In the Metadata Tool  I can see that Capture One has accepted both all of the data that I've created using the IPTC Template, as well as all of the usual Canon metadata.

Then I use Capture One to do all of the RAW processing work and then Output the best images into another created folder called Large jpgs.  I open that folder in PM and caption each image with the specific player's name and activity.  More to the point I can see that the earlier "global" captioning has survived. So I would say that PM and Capture One work just fine together.

Offline Jamie

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Re: PM syncing metadata with Capture One
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2021, 11:09:03 AM »
Hi Dave,

sorry, been away for a while.

I trust you leave your raw files as Canon Raw files, right?  I.e. you do not convert them to DNG.  With proprietary raw, PM will write to an XMP sidecar.  It also reads this XMP sidecar.  Thus, if you were to make changes to the caption in Capture One, they would appear in PM no problem.

My scenario is different. I have DNG raw flies.  Since DNG is an open standard, PM gladly reads/writes to the DNG, but ignores XMP-sidecars (which are theoretically not needed).  The trouble is that Capture One absolutely refuses to write to a raw file under any circumstances.  You can set C1 to write metadata to XMP-sidecar files, but PM ignores them in the presence of DNG raw files.  (Kirk confirmed this behavior.)

Simply put: C1 is too cautious with their "never write to raw" policy. But, it's understandable, since they want no liability for screwing up a precious image. PM is right that DNG is an open standard that should be used. But, it would be nice if they were more flexible in enabling reading/writing to sidecars in combination with DNG.  I have full understanding of the positions of each company. But, a user like me loses out, as I can only have a one-way process.