Author Topic: The best practices to rename and organise folders?  (Read 654 times)

Offline GetUp

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The best practices to rename and organise folders?
« on: January 06, 2021, 12:07:20 AM »
So, I'm just finished indexing my pictures library (around 700 000 images), how to organise them in a best way possible with catalog capabilities?
I need to rename some folders (how in catalog?) and move around folders, images and subfolders. It is very easy task in file system (in Finder), but how to maintain it in catalog?
thanks, im using Big Sur and PM Plus

Offline lucianobisbal

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Re: The best practices to rename and organise folders?
« Reply #1 on: January 06, 2021, 04:45:21 AM »
I leave a comment to read the answers, since I am in a similar situation and do not know what would be the best way to perform the same task.
thank you very much

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: The best practices to rename and organise folders?
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2021, 09:09:06 AM »
So, I'm just finished indexing my pictures library (around 700 000 images), how to organise them in a best way possible with catalog capabilities?
I need to rename some folders (how in catalog?) and move around folders, images and subfolders. It is very easy task in file system (in Finder), but how to maintain it in catalog?
thanks, im using Big Sur and PM Plus

Use the Navigator to rename folders.  To move folders, use drag and drop in the Navigator.

Both operations should keep the catalog(s) up to date on the changes.

-Kirk

Offline GetUp

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Re: The best practices to rename and organise folders?
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2021, 10:10:40 AM »
Can i grab more than one folder (with shift)?

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: The best practices to rename and organise folders?
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2021, 10:53:01 AM »
Can i grab more than one folder (with shift)?

No.

Offline GetUp

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Re: The best practices to rename and organise folders?
« Reply #5 on: January 07, 2021, 02:21:47 AM »
Is file delete in PMP also deletes it in Catalog?

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: The best practices to rename and organise folders?
« Reply #6 on: January 07, 2021, 08:21:44 AM »
Is file delete in PMP also deletes it in Catalog?

Yes.

Offline rjh1007

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Re: The best practices to rename and organise folders?
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2021, 03:58:55 PM »
So, I'm just finished indexing my pictures library (around 700 000 images), how to organise them in a best way possible with catalog capabilities?
I need to rename some folders (how in catalog?) and move around folders, images and subfolders. It is very easy task in file system (in Finder), but how to maintain it in catalog?
thanks, im using Big Sur and PM Plus

Use the Navigator to rename folders.  To move folders, use drag and drop in the Navigator.

Both operations should keep the catalog(s) up to date on the changes.

-Kirk


Kirk
I moved two folders to a new subfolder using drag and drop in the Navigator as you suggest above. The folders and their image files were moved and recreated in the new folder in Navigator, however, the same two folders still exist in their previous location complete with with the image files in the catalog even after syncing catalogs and a long scan to catalog.  So now I have two sets of these two folders.  I know I can remove the originals from the catalog, however, the drag and drop should have done that. BTW I had to do a quick scan for the moved folders to display in the new subfolder in the catalog.
I repeated with another folder to make sure I wasn't mistaken.  Same thing happened. 

COMMENT/REQUEST: The entire ability to move/reorganizer folders is very inefficient. PM+ only allows you to drag and drop 1 folder at a time.  I have 100 - 150 shoots per year and each is in a date ordered sub folder under a parent year folder.  When a new non dated folder is created for organizing a number of the related shoot folders it displays at the bottom of the sub folders list.  If I want to move one of the folders to the new folder in Navigator I have to drag - slowly all the way to the bottom and with 100-150 folders it takes time.  Then if I want to move another folder to that new folder I have to rinse and repeat and rinse and repeat.  Two huge improvements would be to allow selecting and moving multiple folders and/or selecting multiple folders and using the copy/cut and paste functions.  Both of these are part of Windows explorer why not in PM+?
To add to the issue in Organizer/Browse you can highlight multiple folders and right click to select Choose New Location, however, only the folder that the mouse was right clicked on gets moved.

For an extremely fast and efficient program for most other things the moving and the reorganizing of folders and files within folders is just plain awful.  If I tried to move or reorganize folders and files externally from PM+ I then have the time consuming, tedious requirements of locating the now out of sync folder(s) and resyncing the catalog(s). There must be a faster, more efficient and less error prone way of reorganizing folders.
Bob

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: The best practices to rename and organise folders?
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2021, 04:16:35 PM »
Bob,

So, I'm just finished indexing my pictures library (around 700 000 images), how to organise them in a best way possible with catalog capabilities?
I need to rename some folders (how in catalog?) and move around folders, images and subfolders. It is very easy task in file system (in Finder), but how to maintain it in catalog?
thanks, im using Big Sur and PM Plus

Use the Navigator to rename folders.  To move folders, use drag and drop in the Navigator.

Both operations should keep the catalog(s) up to date on the changes.

I moved two folders to a new subfolder using drag and drop in the Navigator as you suggest above. The folders and their image files were moved and recreated in the new folder in Navigator, however, the same two folders still exist in their previous location complete with with the image files in the catalog even after syncing catalogs and a long scan to catalog.  So now I have two sets of these two folders.  I know I can remove the originals from the catalog, however, the drag and drop should have done that. BTW I had to do a quick scan for the moved folders to display in the new subfolder in the catalog.
I repeated with another folder to make sure I wasn't mistaken.  Same thing happened.

If the files really got moved and not copied, then that's a bug.  You're certain that the files don't exist in their original location any longer?
 
COMMENT/REQUEST: The entire ability to move/reorganizer folders is very inefficient. PM+ only allows you to drag and drop 1 folder at a time.  I have 100 - 150 shoots per year and each is in a date ordered sub folder under a parent year folder.  When a new non dated folder is created for organizing a number of the related shoot folders it displays at the bottom of the sub folders list.  If I want to move one of the folders to the new folder in Navigator I have to drag - slowly all the way to the bottom and with 100-150 folders it takes time.  Then if I want to move another folder to that new folder I have to rinse and repeat and rinse and repeat.  Two huge improvements would be to allow selecting and moving multiple folders and/or selecting multiple folders and using the copy/cut and paste functions.  Both of these are part of Windows explorer why not in PM+?

Because the Navigator is not provided by the OS but written by us for the purpose intended.  Simple manipulation of the file system and as a launch point for browsing folders.

If you need to move a number of folders around on your file system, I suggest doing that outside of Photo Mechanic Plus with your OS.

To add to the issue in Organizer/Browse you can highlight multiple folders and right click to select Choose New Location, however, only the folder that the mouse was right clicked on gets moved.

OK, it shouldn't display that option when multiple items are selected.  You can't have multiple folders all map to one new location anyway.

For an extremely fast and efficient program for most other things the moving and the reorganizing of folders and files within folders is just plain awful.  If I tried to move or reorganize folders and files externally from PM+ I then have the time consuming, tedious requirements of locating the now out of sync folder(s) and resyncing the catalog(s). There must be a faster, more efficient and less error prone way of reorganizing folders.

I'm open to suggestions, but it can't be 'do everything the OS does'.  Microsoft has an entire team devoted to Windows Explorer.  We don't have those kinds of resources.

Can I ask what compels you to move folders around?  The main purpose of a Catalog system is to make it easy to locate images no matter where they reside.  You shouldn't have to move anything around and still find images with the same speed as someone who is meticulous about their folder layout.

-Kirk

Offline rjh1007

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Re: The best practices to rename and organise folders?
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2021, 12:07:25 AM »
Kirk
Obviously something is being missed by one of us in the communication- You stated in the original reply on January 6/21
"Use the Navigator to rename folders.  To move folders, use drag and drop in the Navigator.

Both operations should keep the catalog(s) up to date on the changes."


In your reply to me you state "If the files really got moved and not copied, then that's a bug.  You're certain that the files don't exist in their original location any longer?"
Kirk - first you say to move files, use drag and drop in the Navigator and now, if I understand you, you say that if the files got moved then it's a bug.????

Question - are we copying or moving or is there a way to do both? We should have the choice of either moving or copying files and folders.

You also state "Can I ask what compels you to move folders around?  The main purpose of a Catalog system is to make it easy to locate images no matter where they reside.  You shouldn't have to move anything around and still find images with the same speed as someone who is meticulous about their folder layout."

I know exactly what the purpose of a catalog is and you state it correctly. A caveat should be added, that the end user should seldom, if ever, have to step outside the database to input, extract, modify, copy, move or backup data - a holder over from my professional career.  There are, however, as you say "meticulous" catalogs and those that are just a bunch of files with reference links such as how many people use their LR catalogs - dump everything in one big pot. I bet you some are doing the same thing with PM.

I have always held that even the best databases (catalogs) aren't without design flaws, broken links, corrupted files, misspelled or mis-linked keywords, improperly placed metadata or color or ratings tags that were yellow rather than green or 4 rather than 5. Not even garbage in garbage out - just an oversight, a typo or you forgot or misspelled the model or agency's name. Like a triple safe backup, having a "meticulous" folder system (along with the metadata, etal) - for me by date and place and then grouped by job or event is a fail safe. It gives me another option to quickly find folders and files by sight - often faster than doing a search.

As I have been transitioning from a Capture One and previously LR catalogs to PM+ I am seeing new folder groupings that would make my use of the PM+ catalog even more intuitive and fail safe. That is what compels me and what I was/am trying to do within PM+ to create even more fail safe groupings of folders.

Unfortunately, whether I try to organize within PM+ or in my OS it is very time consuming, to many steps to mess up and forget.
I wouldn't expect you to to everything my OS does and I am honestly blown away by the support you and your techs provide. I am very appreciative.

Suggestions - I could give you a list, however, dealing with the above just give us an easy to use multi file/multi folder drag and drop that supports both copying and moving.  Between the navigator and organizer most of the needed file explorer / finder functions are there with the huge exception of the multi file drag and drop.

On bended knee I would also ask for more searchable exif data  - I have logged that in the feature requests, however, if you don't ask you usually don't get.

Thanks in advance
Bob

Offline GetUp

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Re: The best practices to rename and organise folders?
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2021, 04:31:08 AM »
Hi, Kirk!
"If you need to move a number of folders around on your file system, I suggest doing that outside of Photo Mechanic Plus with your OS."
How to sync catalog with this changes after such manipulations? Thanks

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: The best practices to rename and organise folders?
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2021, 09:30:37 AM »
Bob,

Obviously something is being missed by one of us in the communication- You stated in the original reply on January 6/21
"Use the Navigator to rename folders.  To move folders, use drag and drop in the Navigator.

Both operations should keep the catalog(s) up to date on the changes."


In your reply to me you state "If the files really got moved and not copied, then that's a bug.  You're certain that the files don't exist in their original location any longer?"
Kirk - first you say to move files, use drag and drop in the Navigator and now, if I understand you, you say that if the files got moved then it's a bug.????

Sorry, I meant to say that it's a bug if the catalog was not updated to reflect the changes.

Question - are we copying or moving or is there a way to do both? We should have the choice of either moving or copying files and folders.

If the drop is on the same volume it will be a move by default.  Holding down the Control key will do a copy.  (on macOS one holds down the Option key).

You also state "Can I ask what compels you to move folders around?  The main purpose of a Catalog system is to make it easy to locate images no matter where they reside.  You shouldn't have to move anything around and still find images with the same speed as someone who is meticulous about their folder layout."

I know exactly what the purpose of a catalog is and you state it correctly. A caveat should be added, that the end user should seldom, if ever, have to step outside the database to input, extract, modify, copy, move or backup data - a holder over from my professional career.  There are, however, as you say "meticulous" catalogs and those that are just a bunch of files with reference links such as how many people use their LR catalogs - dump everything in one big pot. I bet you some are doing the same thing with PM.

I have always held that even the best databases (catalogs) aren't without design flaws, broken links, corrupted files, misspelled or mis-linked keywords, improperly placed metadata or color or ratings tags that were yellow rather than green or 4 rather than 5. Not even garbage in garbage out - just an oversight, a typo or you forgot or misspelled the model or agency's name. Like a triple safe backup, having a "meticulous" folder system (along with the metadata, etal) - for me by date and place and then grouped by job or event is a fail safe. It gives me another option to quickly find folders and files by sight - often faster than doing a search.

As I have been transitioning from a Capture One and previously LR catalogs to PM+ I am seeing new folder groupings that would make my use of the PM+ catalog even more intuitive and fail safe. That is what compels me and what I was/am trying to do within PM+ to create even more fail safe groupings of folders.

Thank you for the insight.

Unfortunately, whether I try to organize within PM+ or in my OS it is very time consuming, to many steps to mess up and forget.
I wouldn't expect you to to everything my OS does and I am honestly blown away by the support you and your techs provide. I am very appreciative.

Suggestions - I could give you a list, however, dealing with the above just give us an easy to use multi file/multi folder drag and drop that supports both copying and moving.  Between the navigator and organizer most of the needed file explorer / finder functions are there with the huge exception of the multi file drag and drop.

We'll consider this.  It's not a simple feature to implement correctly.  It's simple to allow multiple selection, but the error handling/recovery complexity increases significantly.  I'm sure you want something that not only allows you to move a number of folders around efficiently, but you also never want to lose any data or have a portion of your data get moved and another portion to be left behind.

On bended knee I would also ask for more searchable exif data  - I have logged that in the feature requests, however, if you don't ask you usually don't get.

We will likely add more EXIF data to be searched once we get other issues resolved that are impacting users in a negative way.

-Kirk
« Last Edit: January 14, 2021, 01:50:08 PM by Kirk Baker »

Offline rjh1007

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Re: The best practices to rename and organise folders?
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2021, 09:51:38 AM »
Kirk
Not sure how to highlight a a part of a quote  - cut &
Quote from: rjh1007 on Today at 12:07:25 AM
Question - are we copying or moving or is there a way to do both? We should have the choice of either moving or copying files and folders.

If the drop is on the same volume it will be a move by default.  Holding down the Control key will do a copy.  (on macOS one holds down the Option key). paste instead


I only dragged and dropped not using the Control Key and it apparently copied as I now have two copies - one in the original location and the other in the new folder.  I have done this a couple of times since and the same results.
Bob

Offline rjh1007

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Re: The best practices to rename and organise folders?
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2021, 10:33:16 AM »
Kirk
I can absolutely confirm that the drag and drop WITHOUT the control key in windows does in fact move not copy the images in Navigator only.  In the catalog it is copying. I have to do a quick scan to sync catalogs to see any changes, however, after the quick scan I definitely have two copies in the catalog.  The scan should not be necessary and the results in the catalog are opposite to the navigator.

I have now done this 9 times and the results are the same.

Bob

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: The best practices to rename and organise folders?
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2021, 11:14:15 AM »
Bob,

I can absolutely confirm that the drag and drop WITHOUT the control key in windows does in fact move not copy the images in Navigator only.  In the catalog it is copying. I have to do a quick scan to sync catalogs to see any changes, however, after the quick scan I definitely have two copies in the catalog.  The scan should not be necessary and the results in the catalog are opposite to the navigator.

OK, that's something we'll have to fix once we can reproduce it.

-Kirk