Author Topic: Derivatives Metadata.synchro  (Read 410 times)

Offline EtMRS

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Derivatives Metadata.synchro
« on: September 09, 2021, 12:05:41 AM »
When we update metadata in PMp, I would like an option to synchronise with derivatives. That means, every picture where the filename begin with the Original basename.

It's very interesting for people who are working with multi applications and so, with a lot of version of a picture.

Example : I scan a old film and the new original is 198800354.NEF. (basename=198800354) I convert it in DNG for compatibility purpose : 198800354.dng. Then Edited : 198800354.tiff
Converted in BW with Nik Software : 198800354_BW.tif, version for internet : 198800354_int.jpg...
If I want change something in metadata (Copyright, owner contact adress...) it's very tedious and we can forget one derivative...

But, of course, it's optional.

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Derivatives Metadata.synchro
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2021, 09:04:22 AM »
When we update metadata in PMp, I would like an option to synchronise with derivatives. That means, every picture where the filename begin with the Original basename.

It's very interesting for people who are working with multi applications and so, with a lot of version of a picture.

Example : I scan a old film and the new original is 198800354.NEF. (basename=198800354) I convert it in DNG for compatibility purpose : 198800354.dng. Then Edited : 198800354.tiff
Converted in BW with Nik Software : 198800354_BW.tif, version for internet : 198800354_int.jpg...
If I want change something in metadata (Copyright, owner contact adress...) it's very tedious and we can forget one derivative...

But, of course, it's optional.

Would there ever be a need to not apply all of the metadata to the other images?  For instance would there ever be a field that should not be applied to the derivatives?

-Kirk

Offline EtMRS

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Re: Derivatives Metadata.synchro
« Reply #2 on: September 10, 2021, 06:53:43 AM »
@ Kirk :
Yes, only some fields are copied in derivatives. And, it's not always the same fields.
When we want to copy in derivative, two possibilities :
- A global checkbox for all and PMp update derivative only for updated fields.
- A checkbox for every field that must be synchro in derivatives ...

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Derivatives Metadata.synchro
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2021, 08:28:04 AM »
Yes, only some fields are copied in derivatives. And, it's not always the same fields.
When we want to copy in derivative, two possibilities :
- A global checkbox for all and PMp update derivative only for updated fields.
- A checkbox for every field that must be synchro in derivatives ...

Would you need to see the fields before you choose what is applied?

-Kirk

Offline EtMRS

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Re: Derivatives Metadata.synchro
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2021, 11:54:27 AM »
@ Kirk :
For the selected picture, user sees the existing IPTC info before update. But, for derivative, user don't see the old metadata before update.
It's user responsibility to know the risk of Metadata Derivative Synchro.
If he/she is not sure, it's always possible to use the existing copy/paste feature.

Here an example :
- First user selects a picture and open IPTC info - The basename (=filename without the extension) is used to detect derivatives = basename*.*
- Then user changes the metadata.
- If user want a derivative sync for this metadata, user checks the box near the metadata.
- Maybe showing a list of derivatives is usefull if one or more "Metadata Derivative" checkbox is selected.
- if user selects a derivative, PMp don't go up to the root : ex. : 2021000458_BW.jpg is selected. PMp detects 2021000458_BW.psd as derivative but not 2021000458.NEF because basename is "2021000458_BW"

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Derivatives Metadata.synchro
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2021, 01:33:34 PM »
You can basically do this already.

First open the Metadata Info dialog for the image that is the master.  Hold down the "Modifier Key" (Shift on Windows, Option on macOS) and then click on the "Copy to Template" button at the bottom of the dialog.  Press the Escape key or click the Cancel button.

Select the derivative images.  Open the Metadata Template dialog.  Look over the fields and uncheck any fields you don't want to apply.  Click the "Apply Template to Selected" button.  Depending on the number of images selected and the location of the selected files this can take a few seconds or minutes or hours to complete.

HTH,

-Kirk

Offline EtMRS

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Re: Derivatives Metadata.synchro
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2021, 07:36:37 PM »
Yes, I know this as "Copy/Past" feature. But, like I say it's very tedious if you have a lot to update.
We have 86 kpics originals and 40 kpics derivatives.
That means, select a picture in catalog "Original/Master", open the Metadata (IPTC) info, update metadata fields, copy to template, Escape/Cancel, go to catalog derivative, select derivative (that means going to change the filter !), checking the fields, Apply template, .... and so, for every pictures, one by one ! Try this on 100 pictures....

Now, my request :

Selection of a picture in "original/Master" catalog, opening the new "Metadata Synchro Update" dialog (look like the existing Metadata Template dialog), checking the box of metadata you want (like in the Metadata Template dialog), update fields and "Save and go next". Then PMp update the select field for the master and derivative.
For the next original/master picture, update fields, and "Save and go next" (because PMp remembers checked box).

Working so, it's 100 x faster ! Imagine the time we can spare for our 120 kpics....
« Last Edit: September 11, 2021, 01:34:30 AM by EtMRS »

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Derivatives Metadata.synchro
« Reply #7 on: September 11, 2021, 04:32:17 PM »
Selection of a picture in "original/Master" catalog, opening the new "Metadata Synchro Update" dialog (look like the existing Metadata Template dialog), checking the box of metadata you want (like in the Metadata Template dialog), update fields and "Save and go next". Then PMp update the select field for the master and derivative.
For the next original/master picture, update fields, and "Save and go next" (because PMp remembers checked box).

How would that work?  You say that you've filtered out the derivatives.  If they're not visible in the contact sheet then they're not in the contact sheet.

-Kirk

Offline EtMRS

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Re: Derivatives Metadata.synchro
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2021, 09:14:44 AM »
I use the global folder, so I have both master and derivative. (all the pictures). Then I sort by "type" and go to the RAW (NEF in my case).
I select the first I want to control, open the new "Metadata Synchro Update" tool (New tool exactly like the the existing Metadata Template), check if all fields are OK. Then click the "Update Derivative" button. PMp select the derivative based on filename, and update the underlying database for master and derivatives. user can controls the next master like now.
I know nothing how PMp works with database, so sorry if I say something wrong. The difference with the existing Metadata template : PMp don't say "Change field1="xyz", field9=3,... where filename=basename.extension" but says Change field1="xyz", field9=3,... where filename=basename*.*

It's a very important tools! We choose to invest in PMp because we have so many metadata in all the applications we use : Capture NX2, Photoshop, Capture One, Nik software, HoudahGeo,.... It's a very nightmare to solve metadata conflicts between applications. Now, we says: PMp is THE master of all metadata. Discussion closed.
For Original and derivatives, the master is the original(RAW) for most fields (we need to config this only once).
Synchronising master and derivatives has two very important advantages : time saving (a lot of time !!) and ensure consistency. Both are so important for us.

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Derivatives Metadata.synchro
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2021, 10:29:46 AM »
It's a very important tools! We choose to invest in PMp because we have so many metadata in all the applications we use : Capture NX2, Photoshop, Capture One, Nik software, HoudahGeo,.... It's a very nightmare to solve metadata conflicts between applications. Now, we says: PMp is THE master of all metadata. Discussion closed.

I agree that such a tool needs to be created and it has always been my desire to make our applications useful and less tedious.

That said, I'm not keen on making a duplicate of the Metadata Template dialog that does something different.  I would rather add functionality to the existing Metadata Template that performs the additional feature.

If the only difference is that the Metadata Template window renames itself when invoked as "Metadata Sync", fills in all of the fields from the selected image and then when applied, finds other items in the current contact sheet that have the same base name and updates/overwrites their metadata then that's a reasonable goal that I can accomplish.  Note that it wouldn't have any additional buttons, just some buttons would be renamed (Apply to Selected -> Apply to Similar, for instance).

-Kirk

Offline EtMRS

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Re: Derivatives Metadata.synchro
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2021, 12:22:30 AM »
I agree that such a tool needs to be created and it has always been my desire to make our applications useful and less tedious.

That said, I'm not keen on making a duplicate of the Metadata Template dialog that does something different.  I would rather add functionality to the existing Metadata Template that performs the additional feature.
If the only difference is that the Metadata Template window renames itself when invoked as "Metadata Sync", fills in all of the fields from the selected image and then when applied, finds other items in the current contact sheet that have the same base name and updates/overwrites their metadata then that's a reasonable goal that I can accomplish.  Note that it wouldn't have any additional buttons, just some buttons would be renamed (Apply to Selected -> Apply to Similar, for instance).

-Kirk

Happy to see a solution  :)
A template I use a lot is the Metadata IPTC Info because we can see the existing data, editing, save & go next. So, it's very fast.
For derivative sync, we can reuse the "Save, upload" button that becomes "Save on derivative". The only prob is : no checkbox to select the fields to copy. Because we don't change the copied fields frequently, we can reuse the one checked in the Metadata Template.

O, yes, I prefer using the word "Derivative" (it 's a legal word used in copyright laws) than "Similair" because similarity is ambiguous.
And : My definition of derivative is based on filename. It's OK for me, but for other people, I don't know. In IPTC, we found the xml-gettyimage OriginalFileName, but nobody likes it  8) (I read your post http://forums.camerabits.com/index.php?topic=2005.0)
So, derivatives can be easily found because all derivatives have the same OriginalFileName. But, it's only "Nice to have" for me....