Author Topic: Carrying over Photo Mechanic Metadata to Capture One  (Read 3288 times)

Offline Rob Hedge

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Carrying over Photo Mechanic Metadata to Capture One
« on: June 26, 2022, 05:26:17 PM »
In October 2020, Capture One published a video that shows how to move photos from Photo Mechanic to Capture One with Photo Mechanic metadata intact.

I tried to do this today with Photo Mechanic 6, Capture One Pro 22 and iPhone HEIC files. The metadata didn't carry over. After spending a good amount of time trying to figure out what the problem was, I discovered that the metadata would carry over if I converted the files from HEIC to JPEG before sending them to Capture One.

I have no idea why the file format made a difference, but thought that I'd pass this on. Might save someone else some time.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2022, 06:04:09 PM by Rob Hedge »
Processing: Mac Studio, Photo Mechanic Plus, Capture One

Image Formats: Leica DNG, Apple HEIC, TIFF, JPEG, MOV

Offline flyingout

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Re: Carrying over Photo Mechanic Metadata to Capture One
« Reply #1 on: June 26, 2022, 06:38:22 PM »
Interesting. I do sometimes shoot HEIC on my phone but not that many make it all the way to Capture One (21 still). And it's possible I haven't made any metadata changes to them along the way.

I'll do some testing tomorrow if I can.

How do you have your Metadata preferences set in CO?

Offline Rob Hedge

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Re: Carrying over Photo Mechanic Metadata to Capture One
« Reply #2 on: June 26, 2022, 07:08:50 PM »
Hi,

I'm interested to learn whether you have the same experience.

My Capture One Preference on Metadata is the last item on the attached screen capture. I played with these a bit while trying to fix the problem, but perhaps there's a combination that I missed. Changing the file format to JPEG fixed the problem with these settings.

I should clarify that with the original HEIC format, Capture One showed the usual camera info, but not the IPTC info and keywords that I added in Photo Mechanic.

Processing: Mac Studio, Photo Mechanic Plus, Capture One

Image Formats: Leica DNG, Apple HEIC, TIFF, JPEG, MOV

Offline flyingout

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Re: Carrying over Photo Mechanic Metadata to Capture One
« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2022, 07:41:03 PM »
Hi,

I'm interested to learn whether you have the same experience.

My Capture One Preference on Metadata is the last item on the attached screen capture. I played with these a bit while trying to fix the problem, but perhaps there's a combination that I missed. Changing the file format to JPEG fixed the problem with these settings.

I should clarify that with the original HEIC format, Capture One showed the usual camera info, but not the IPTC info and keywords that I added in Photo Mechanic.

One quick thought; no testing yet. With the Prefer Sidecar XMP over Embedded pref, if there were an XMP sidecar, let's say using the photos.app export option, CO could be reading that. PM embeds metadata except for RAW.

Offline Rob Hedge

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Re: Carrying over Photo Mechanic Metadata to Capture One
« Reply #4 on: June 26, 2022, 08:06:20 PM »
Hey, if that fixes the problem great, although I'm unclear why changing the file format would address that. On transfer of the iPhone photos, I just sent them via Bluetooth AirDrop from the Photos App on my phone where they get stored to my desktop downloads folder. No export as the term is usually understood.
Processing: Mac Studio, Photo Mechanic Plus, Capture One

Image Formats: Leica DNG, Apple HEIC, TIFF, JPEG, MOV

Offline Rob Hedge

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Re: Carrying over Photo Mechanic Metadata to Capture One
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2022, 06:07:21 AM »
Carl Seibert's video Working with metadata in Capture One might be interesting as background, for example from 14:35:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpuF8_9UB4g
Processing: Mac Studio, Photo Mechanic Plus, Capture One

Image Formats: Leica DNG, Apple HEIC, TIFF, JPEG, MOV

Offline flyingout

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Re: Carrying over Photo Mechanic Metadata to Capture One
« Reply #6 on: June 27, 2022, 12:02:58 PM »
Carl Seibert's video Working with metadata in Capture One might be interesting as background, for example from 14:35:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PpuF8_9UB4g

Good summary, as usual from Carl, regarding the interoperability problems with CO when trying to use it along with most other metadata tools. Rereading embedded metadata does occur, however, which may have been different with the version he was using.

And you can, at least now, mix and/or logic in the search dialog, which may be new as well but was not obvious to me at first either.

Offline flyingout

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Re: Carrying over Photo Mechanic Metadata to Capture One
« Reply #7 on: June 27, 2022, 12:26:36 PM »
I ran some tests and confirm that HEIC embedded metadata, as written by Photo Mechanic, is not read by Capture One (21). I did some searching through CO's knowledge base and community forums and didn't see this addressed although I bet it has been somewhere.

Basic process:
- Exported an original iPhone HEIC image from Photos.app without including IPTC data in a sidecar. (Should be no different than using Airdrop or other means to transfer.)
- Opened Metadata Info dialog in PM and filled it with test data (snapshot)
- Verified using exiftool that the data had been embedded into the HEIC file
- Imported the image into CO (synchronized folder, but that should be the same as using the import dialog.)

Result: None of the added metadata showed up in CO, just as you observed.

I also exported another HEIC image with some Photos.app metadata (caption, title, keyword) exported to sidecar XMP. That was read by CO, as I expected it would.

I did the same tests with a JPG, and as always, embedded metadata was read (and synced when changes were made) by CO.

I didn't change my Metadata preferences, which are different than yours:




Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Carrying over Photo Mechanic Metadata to Capture One
« Reply #8 on: June 27, 2022, 12:54:43 PM »
I ran some tests and confirm that HEIC embedded metadata, as written by Photo Mechanic, is not read by Capture One (21). I did some searching through CO's knowledge base and community forums and didn't see this addressed although I bet it has been somewhere.

Basic process:
- Exported an original iPhone HEIC image from Photos.app without including IPTC data in a sidecar. (Should be no different than using Airdrop or other means to transfer.)
- Opened Metadata Info dialog in PM and filled it with test data (snapshot)
- Verified using exiftool that the data had been embedded into the HEIC file
- Imported the image into CO (synchronized folder, but that should be the same as using the import dialog.)

Result: None of the added metadata showed up in CO, just as you observed.

I also exported another HEIC image with some Photos.app metadata (caption, title, keyword) exported to sidecar XMP. That was read by CO, as I expected it would.

Hopefully one day soon, CO will pay attention to metadata contained within HEIC files like it does JPEGs.  HEIC/HEIF files are a container format and are perfectly capable of containing XMP metadata.

-Kirk

Offline flyingout

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Re: Carrying over Photo Mechanic Metadata to Capture One
« Reply #9 on: June 27, 2022, 01:21:19 PM »
I also exported another HEIC image with some Photos.app metadata (caption, title, keyword) exported to sidecar XMP. That was read by CO, as I expected it would.

Hopefully one day soon, CO will pay attention to metadata contained within HEIC files like it does JPEGs.  HEIC/HEIF files are a container format and are perfectly capable of containing XMP metadata.

-Kirk

Agreed.

I noticed something with this second test that I hadn't expected. The XMP sidecar exported by Photos.app along with the (original) HEIC was ignored by PM (6.0, build 6496) as expected. But when I saved the Metadata Info data into the HEIC, PM deleted the sidecar.

This doesn't happen with JPGs. Should PM be deleting the sidecar in this case?

Offline Rob Hedge

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Re: Carrying over Photo Mechanic Metadata to Capture One
« Reply #10 on: June 27, 2022, 02:05:33 PM »
I didn't change my Metadata preferences, which are different than yours:

I took my Metadata Preferences (reply #2 above) from Capture One's David Grover at 23:05 of his video on using Photo Mechanic with Capture One: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeQSob64qlQ
Processing: Mac Studio, Photo Mechanic Plus, Capture One

Image Formats: Leica DNG, Apple HEIC, TIFF, JPEG, MOV

Offline Rob Hedge

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Re: Carrying over Photo Mechanic Metadata to Capture One
« Reply #11 on: June 27, 2022, 02:10:09 PM »
Thanks @flyingout. It's very helpful to know that someone else had the same result. I guess the solution for the time being is to convert HEIC files to JPEG.
Processing: Mac Studio, Photo Mechanic Plus, Capture One

Image Formats: Leica DNG, Apple HEIC, TIFF, JPEG, MOV

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Carrying over Photo Mechanic Metadata to Capture One
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2022, 02:42:39 PM »
I also exported another HEIC image with some Photos.app metadata (caption, title, keyword) exported to sidecar XMP. That was read by CO, as I expected it would.

Hopefully one day soon, CO will pay attention to metadata contained within HEIC files like it does JPEGs.  HEIC/HEIF files are a container format and are perfectly capable of containing XMP metadata.

Agreed.

I noticed something with this second test that I hadn't expected. The XMP sidecar exported by Photos.app along with the (original) HEIC was ignored by PM (6.0, build 6496) as expected. But when I saved the Metadata Info data into the HEIC, PM deleted the sidecar.

This doesn't happen with JPGs. Should PM be deleting the sidecar in this case?

Under the following circumstances PM does delete the XMP sidecar:  If a sidecar XMP file is present and its date is after the HEIC, then it is read instead of any embedded XMP.  Then when metadata changes are made and XMP is embedded, regardless of whether the XMP was used for read, the sidecar file is deleted after editing.
However, with HIF (a variant of HEIC) files we make sure there is no ARW or CR3 file present with same base name (since Sony & Canon write RAW+HIF.  For HEIC files we make sure there is no MOV file present because iOS can write MOV+HEIC.

-Kirk

Offline dennis

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Re: Carrying over Photo Mechanic Metadata to Capture One
« Reply #13 on: June 27, 2022, 03:01:59 PM »
BTW if this deletion behavior sounds strange, it is also what Photoshop will do if you pair an XMP with a DNG file.  DNG files (and other standard formats like JPG, TIFF, PNG etc) are meant to contain XMP and not use sidecar files.  So if you open up a DNG in Photoshop and there is an XMP file present, it does the same logic: if XMP file modification time is more recent than DNG then it uses the data in the XMP sidecar for loading, otherwise it loads the XMP that is embedded.  In either case the XMP file is whacked.  Even if you open in ACR and close the window (without cancelling), the XMP sidecar is deleted (but DNG is updated with this XMP if it is newer).  You don't even need to open the file into Photoshop for this to happen.

--dennis

Offline flyingout

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Re: Carrying over Photo Mechanic Metadata to Capture One
« Reply #14 on: June 27, 2022, 03:05:49 PM »
I didn't change my Metadata preferences, which are different than yours:

I took my Metadata Preferences (reply #2 above) from Capture One's David Grover at 23:05 of his video on using Photo Mechanic with Capture One: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeQSob64qlQ

I don't think there's a one best way to deal with the mess that is metadata sharing. I like the Full Sync and so far it hasn't resulted in any disasters. For RAW/Sidecars the syncing works rather well allowing changes either place (as much as I try to let PM do the heavy lifting most of the time).

The preference for embedded over sidecar is, if I remember correctly, so that changes to JPGs and the like from PM get automatically synced into CO. (Also, changes I make to EXIF like dates and GPS may have been why I've selected this option.)

But doing it the other way with manually loading and syncing is probably safer.

Thanks @flyingout. It's very helpful to know that someone else had the same result. I guess the solution for the time being is to convert HEIC files to JPEG.

That's one way. Or you could just shoot JPEG. I have not come to a conclusion yet as to the benefits either way. I'm still using both. I just try to convert/save as little as possible with lossy formats.

And until all the metadata handlers get on the same page, it's going to continue to be a mess. I'm just trying to keep the definitive data in the files/sidecars as much as possible.

Cheers