Raw + Jpg mode - Display Raw version

[devenh]

I understand that in Raw + Jpg mode that the jpg image is displayed and this makes sense most of the time.  However, I find that if I edit and save the raw file, then I need to save a jpg version in order for PM to reflect the changes. 

Is this necessary or is there some "easy button" I haven't found yet?  One option to consider would be if the file date of the raw file is newer than that of the jpg file, then PM use the raw file for display purposes.

Deven

[Kirk Baker]

I understand that in Raw + Jpg mode that the jpg image is displayed and this makes sense most of the time.  However, I find that if I edit and save the raw file, then I need to save a jpg version in order for PM to reflect the changes. 

Is this necessary or is there some "easy button" I haven't found yet?  One option to consider would be if the file date of the raw file is newer than that of the jpg file, then PM use the raw file for display purposes.

If you're using software that changes the embedded JPEG in your RAW files, you might as well just shoot RAW only and skip shooting RAW+JPEG.

But otherwise, in RAW+JPEG mode, the JPEG is always used and there is no provision for changing this.

-Kirk

[Hayo Baan]

The way my workflow is, the way PM does it now is sure enough.  I consider the RAW as the negative, perform RAW adjustments on it (using Nikon Capture NX), and only in case I need further edits impossible with Capture will I export to TIFF and perform some extra edits in PhotoShop.  The image of the TIFF then becomes the end result which I would like to see in PM.  And this is how PM supports it now.  Except for the fact I have to currently rename the TIFF to JPG, but there's a feature request out already to allow for RAW+TIFF pairing and synchronisation.

I also concur with Kirk on this that if you aren't going to update the JPG after you've updated the RAW, why have the JPG file anyway?

That said, maybe a work-around for you would be to (temporarily) switch to unpaired RAW+JPG view (CTRL-J on windows)?

[NeilR]

I would like to add a thought to this Raw+JPG discussion.  I shoot a D2H, which has only a tiny 375x570 preview image out of camera. Once I update the NEF in Capture, I have a full size preview in the NEF but an out of date JPG.  I would like to streamline this workflow, avoiding the need to selectively delete the preview JPGs after the edit.  I find it confusing to see the original unedited image in raw+jpg mode.

One solution, which is what Nikon employed in View V4. is to have the ingest program embed the JPG preview into the raw.  PM extracts this preview so it is already reading all these raw files and knows the layout.  Is that possible?  Nikon deprecated this feature with it's new ViewNX (saying take a hike to it's D2H users), so that becomes a long term problem as this older Transfer program gets even older and new camera models are announced.  I think this would be a good feature for PM.  Even with cameras that have full size embedded JPGs in the NEF, such as the D200, that embedded JPG is only about 800K, verses a 3M+ (and therefore presumably higher quality) JPG PReview produced in camera.   Embedding the camera's JPG into the raw would result in more consistent quality.  After selective editing in Capture, I end with a mix of 800K and 3M embedded previews.  I know that I can do a batch save on all my NEFs to force a full size preview but Capture does this at the rate of about 5 a minute on my machine.  With sometimes thousands of images, that can easily be an overnight process.

Another solution would be to use the newest image and/or add some smart selection based on size.  If my raw's embedded preview is only 375x570 (approximately the size of the D2H preview) and my associated JPG file is around 1600x2400, PM should use the larger image.  After the file is updated, both files will be the same dimensions so then the date sort could take effect, or the NEF could win when the dimensions are the same or reasonably close.

One way or the other, it would solve a serious workflow problem that anyone with a D2H should be having, and without any solution (AFAIK) currently in PM...

Regards,
Neil

[Kirk Baker]

Neil,

I would like to add a thought to this Raw+JPG discussion.  I shoot a D2H, which has only a tiny 375x570 preview image out of camera. Once I update the NEF in Capture, I have a full size preview in the NEF but an out of date JPG.  I would like to streamline this workflow, avoiding the need to selectively delete the preview JPGs after the edit.  I find it confusing to see the original unedited image in raw+jpg mode.

One solution, which is what Nikon employed in View V4. is to have the ingest program embed the JPG preview into the raw.  PM extracts this preview so it is already reading all these raw files and knows the layout.  Is that possible?  Nikon deprecated this feature with it's new ViewNX (saying take a hike to it's D2H users), so that becomes a long term problem as this older Transfer program gets even older and new camera models are announced.  I think this would be a good feature for PM.  Even with cameras that have full size embedded JPGs in the NEF, such as the D200, that embedded JPG is only about 800K, verses a 3M+ (and therefore presumably higher quality) JPG PReview produced in camera.   Embedding the camera's JPG into the raw would result in more consistent quality.  After selective editing in Capture, I end with a mix of 800K and 3M embedded previews.  I know that I can do a batch save on all my NEFs to force a full size preview but Capture does this at the rate of about 5 a minute on my machine.  With sometimes thousands of images, that can easily be an overnight process.

Another solution would be to use the newest image and/or add some smart selection based on size.  If my raw's embedded preview is only 375x570 (approximately the size of the D2H preview) and my associated JPG file is around 1600x2400, PM should use the larger image.  After the file is updated, both files will be the same dimensions so then the date sort could take effect, or the NEF could win when the dimensions are the same or reasonably close.

Those are some good ideas.  We plan to have such a feature in 4.6.

-Kirk

[NeilR]

I'll be looking forward to 4.6!!!

[rbsandor]

Kirk: I'd like to make sure I understand this thread more clearly. I shoot NEF's with a Nikon D200 and edit in Capture NX. Am I correct to assume that after I perform edits that the embedded JPEG does not reflect those edits until or unless I convert the file to JPEG or TIFF? If so, perhaps this would explain why emailed JPEG's don't appear to reflect the edits I made. Thanks, Richard

[Kirk Baker]

Richard,

Kirk: I'd like to make sure I understand this thread more clearly. I shoot NEF's with a Nikon D200 and edit in Capture NX. Am I correct to assume that after I perform edits that the embedded JPEG does not reflect those edits until or unless I convert the file to JPEG or TIFF? If so, perhaps this would explain why emailed JPEG's don't appear to reflect the edits I made.

The embedded JPEG in your adjusted NEF file does reflect the edits.  The problem occurs when you have shot in RAW+JPEG and have Photo Mechanic set to combine the RAW and JPEG files together so they show up as a single item in the contact sheet.  In this case all image generation is taken from the JPEG which in most cases is a camera-produced JPEG and does not have your adjustments rendered into it.

If you shoot nothing but NEFs, adjust them and don't produce JPEGs then this problem will not affect you in any way.

-Kirk

[rbsandor]

Kirk: Your last sentence leaves me a little confused. You say if I shoot nothing but NEF's and don't produce JPEG's, the problem won't affect me. I do shoot nothing but NEF's, and I do produce JPEG's, ergo the problem does affect me? So what should I do to assure that the edits I have made are applied to JPEG's for use in printing, emailing, web posting etc?
I have noticed (not on a routine, but rather irregularly) that some JPEG's sent via email or posted to the web do not seem to reflect edits. I'm not sure if what I'm seeing is just a resolution/size issue or edits not being applied. Any help would be most appreciated. Thanks, Richard

[Kirk Baker]

Richard,

Kirk: Your last sentence leaves me a little confused. You say if I shoot nothing but NEF's and don't produce JPEG's, the problem won't affect me. I do shoot nothing but NEF's, and I do produce JPEG's, ergo the problem does affect me? So what should I do to assure that the edits I have made are applied to JPEG's for use in printing, emailing, web posting etc?
I have noticed (not on a routine, but rather irregularly) that some JPEG's sent via email or posted to the web do not seem to reflect edits. I'm not sure if what I'm seeing is just a resolution/size issue or edits not being applied. Any help would be most appreciated.

Well, what I am saying is that when you have a pair of NEF and JPEG images combined, then the JPEG will be used for any image generation.  If the JPEG was produced by Capture NX or some other software then it would *have* the edits in the resulting JPEG unless the software completely ignored your adjustments which is highly unlikely.

Look at the JPEGs that your software produces.  Do they look like they looked in your RAW processor?  Then they should look the same in the output of Photo Mechanic.  If the produced JPEGs don't look like what the RAW file looked like then you'll have to figure out what is going wrong in the RAW processing software.

HTH,

-Kirk