Author Topic: Lightroom and PM  (Read 9838 times)

Offline Jonzinator

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Lightroom and PM
« on: August 27, 2007, 08:12:11 PM »
Greetings....

Curious if PM can read the itpc info I add while in Lightroom?  The metadata is saved as and xmp. Problem I have is that I want to be able to search and add meta data to most of my files in PM but while in LR editing images and adding metadata at the same time is much easier to manage.

Any thoughts?

Thanks....

Troy

Offline Jonzinator

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Re: Lightroom and PM
« Reply #1 on: August 27, 2007, 08:23:49 PM »
Well since I posted I might have found my answer after some more digging...

http://forums.camerabits.com/index.php?topic=1649.0

Now this worked from LR to PM but not the other way around.   Is that possible?

Troy

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Lightroom and PM
« Reply #2 on: August 27, 2007, 08:47:52 PM »
Troy,

Well since I posted I might have found my answer after some more digging...

http://forums.camerabits.com/index.php?topic=1649.0

Now this worked from LR to PM but not the other way around.   Is that possible?

It should be possible.

Have you setup PM to only write its IPTC4XMP into XMP sidecar files?  Did you get LR to update its database with the XMP sidecar files updated by PM?

-Kirk

Offline Jonzinator

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Re: Lightroom and PM
« Reply #3 on: August 27, 2007, 09:03:51 PM »
Im not exactly sure I have the settings in PM correct.  I have included a screen capture.   The problem I am have is that LR seems to override PM.  If I try to add to the LR info from PM it does not show and I get a conflict.


Thanks...

Troy



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Offline Hayo Baan

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Re: Lightroom and PM
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2007, 06:31:39 AM »
Troy,

I've done a little Lightroom testing while using PM and the PM updates definitely show up in Lightroom.  You have to remember, however, that Lightroom uses a database and does not update it's information without being told to explicitly.  So just make sure you do and you should be fine.  ;)

Your settings should cover this well.

Cheers
Hayo Baan - Photography
Web: www.hayobaan.nl

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Lightroom and PM
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2007, 06:38:30 AM »
Troy,

Im not exactly sure I have the settings in PM correct.  I have included a screen capture.   The problem I am have is that LR seems to override PM.  If I try to add to the LR info from PM it does not show and I get a conflict.

Uncheck the "Embed IPTC4XMP" checkbox.  You may have to use the "Revert TIFF-based RAW to original" command on the Tools menu to strip out any embedded XMP data.  Adobe's tools have various problems with embedded IPTC4XMP.

-Kirk

Offline Hayo Baan

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Re: Lightroom and PM
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2007, 07:15:20 AM »
Uncheck the "Embed IPTC4XMP" checkbox.  You may have to use the "Revert TIFF-based RAW to original" command on the Tools menu to strip out any embedded XMP data.  Adobe's tools have various problems with embedded IPTC4XMP.

Kirk, can you elaborate on this "problem" a bit? E.g., what is the problem, and do all Adobe's tools suffer from it?

I do embed the XMP data in the file, and when I tested Lightroom a while back, I did not notice any real problems (at least not ones I could work around by hacking the .xmp files a bit).  I guess I was lucky then  :D
However, I also use Photoshop (Elements) to edit TIFF files, and so far I haven't noticed any problems here either.  But then I basically only update IPTC data from within PM...
Hayo Baan - Photography
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Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Lightroom and PM
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2007, 08:27:11 AM »
Hayo,

Uncheck the "Embed IPTC4XMP" checkbox.  You may have to use the "Revert TIFF-based RAW to original" command on the Tools menu to strip out any embedded XMP data.  Adobe's tools have various problems with embedded IPTC4XMP.

Kirk, can you elaborate on this "problem" a bit? E.g., what is the problem, and do all Adobe's tools suffer from it?

I do embed the XMP data in the file, and when I tested Lightroom a while back, I did not notice any real problems (at least not ones I could work around by hacking the .xmp files a bit).  I guess I was lucky then  :D
However, I also use Photoshop (Elements) to edit TIFF files, and so far I haven't noticed any problems here either.  But then I basically only update IPTC data from within PM...

Yes.  The problem is that Adobe's software: Bridge, ACR, (and possibly LR) don't update embedded XMP data, but they *prefer* the embedded data over that contained in the XMP sidecar files.  The result being that when you make RAW adjustments with Adobe's software, only the XMP sidecar file is updated, yet when you later open up the image Adobe's tools don't find the adjustments since they're looking for them in the embedded XMP data which didn't get changed.  This behavior will continue until the XMP data is stripped from the RAW file.  Once stripped, the RAW adjustments from the XMP sidecar file will be used and the adjustments will be seen by the user.

-Kirk

Offline Jonzinator

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Re: Lightroom and PM
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2007, 05:42:21 PM »
Well....seems I am either missing something or Im doing something wrong.   If I add IPTC data "before" before LR the LR can see it and add to it.  But once LR adds data PM can no longer see the changes.  its as if at that point they are looking at differant data files for that image.  In LR under the Catalog Settings > Metadata....All Boxes are checked.

Any thoughts?

Troy

Offline Hayo Baan

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Re: Lightroom and PM
« Reply #9 on: August 29, 2007, 12:16:02 PM »
Yes.  The problem is that Adobe's software: Bridge, ACR, (and possibly LR) don't update embedded XMP data, but they *prefer* the embedded data over that contained in the XMP sidecar files.  The result being that when you make RAW adjustments with Adobe's software, only the XMP sidecar file is updated, yet when you later open up the image Adobe's tools don't find the adjustments since they're looking for them in the embedded XMP data which didn't get changed.  This behavior will continue until the XMP data is stripped from the RAW file.  Once stripped, the RAW adjustments from the XMP sidecar file will be used and the adjustments will be seen by the user.

Kirk, thanks.  Ah, yes, now I remember: I did notice this quirk too, but totally forgot about it as I completely worked-around this by using PM's sync ability :D

By the way, The XMP sidecar hack I referred to earlier, had to do with the Time and Date in the IPTC info.  I had accidentally set these to some value and tried to get rid of it again in Lightroom.  This didn't work so I tried PM, but PM refused as well...  After lots of tries, I finally found that inside the XMP sidecar there was some adobe field, (IIRC, a datefield), which caused this problem.  Removing it, solved the problem.  So it turned-out, nothing a little "sed" hacking couldn't solve ;)

Well....seems I am either missing something or Im doing something wrong.   If I add IPTC data "before" before LR the LR can see it and add to it.  But once LR adds data PM can no longer see the changes.  its as if at that point they are looking at differant data files for that image.  In LR under the Catalog Settings > Metadata....All Boxes are checked.

Troy, having another look at your PM preferences again, the problem may still be there!  Change the order to:
XMP sidecar, Embedded XMP, Embedded IPTC.

If this still doesn't work, double check to see if LR really updates the files.

Hope this solves the puzzle.
Hayo Baan - Photography
Web: www.hayobaan.nl

Offline Jonzinator

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Re: Lightroom and PM
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2007, 04:16:27 PM »
Appreciate all the help!!

I made the changes with no effect.  LR seems to override PM.  If there was a change made in PM and you go to LR you dont see it.  I you then add to that field in LR you get the "conflict detected" and you have to chose to overwrite.   I guess if it was to work one way or the other I prefer this way....I do all my searches and such in PM.

Thanks again.

Troy

Offline Hayo Baan

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Re: Lightroom and PM
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2007, 04:27:23 PM »
Troy,

Ah, could this describe your workflow:

1. Have image in lightroom (with or without IPTC)
2. Open in PM, change/add some IPTC
3. Open again in LR, again change/add some more IPTC => conflict.

If this is the case, all you need to change is add a step before step 3, and force LR to reread the image data as I said earlier.  There is an option somewhere in the LR menus that does this (don't have LR anymore so can't tell you which one exactly).

Explanation for this: Lightroom uses a database and uses the information from the database instead of from the (updated) file if it already "knows" the image.  You have to tell LR to reload the image data explicitly.

Hope this clarifies and explains it better than my first try :D

Good luck
Hayo Baan - Photography
Web: www.hayobaan.nl

Offline SamFrost

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Re: Lightroom and PM
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2007, 05:43:54 AM »
Try the Library>Synchronise... menu in Lightroom.  There is an option there to scan files in LR's library for metadata updates made in other applications.

Offline Jonzinator

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Re: Lightroom and PM
« Reply #13 on: September 02, 2007, 10:52:20 AM »
Thanks,  that helped!  That seems to clear things up.  Now to get tagging all those image. LOL

Thanks again for the advice!

Troy