Selecting "Embed ICC Profile into Camera JPEGs" during ingest.

[Marko]

I shoot with a D200, with sRGB selected in NEF+JPEG mode.  I am aware that Nikon uses it's own "Nikon sRGB" color space.  I use the JPEGs for quick edits and I am wondering if I should have PM embed the ICC profile into Camera JPEGs during ingest?  Without this option selected, when I click "edit" from PM and CS3 opens, the color space shows "sRGB IEC 61966-2-1."  When I turn the "Embed ICC into Camera JPEGs during ingest" option on in PM, in CS3 it shows the color space as just "sRGB Profile."  I am wondering why it doesn't show "Nikon sRGB" in either case?  Out of curiosity I tried Nikon Transfer with their "embed ICC profile" option on and when I open the file in CS3 it does correctly show "Nikon sRGB."  As well, if I do choose to embed ICC profiles into the Camera JPEGs, which profile is it going to use, the one I have selected as the "Default ICC profile if undetermined" under preferences?  The reason I care is I do notice slight differences between Nikon's sRGB and sRGB IEC 61966-2-1.

Thanks in advance.

[dennis]

Marko,

PM can determine that the color space is sRGB by Exif tags and if you choose to embed an ICC profile we use the sRGB profile from your system, not Nikon's sRGB profile (which belongs to Nikon).  I'm not sure of the exact differences between Nikon's sRGB profile and sRGB IEC 61966-2-1 but I suspect it may be a simplification of the sRGB standard.  ICC profiles include a gamma coefficient, but since sRGB's gamma curve is formulated differently it includes a gamma curve table rather than a simple gamma coefficient, and that is why the standard sRGB profile is so much larger in size than, say, an AdobeRGB or BruceRGB profile (the lookup table is bigger than a simple number).

If you really want Nikon's profile to be embedded then you will have to do it later in PM by selecting their profile as a custom profile.  Since PM knows that it is sRGB by Exif tags, the "Default ICC profile if undetermined" logic doesn't apply (this is mostly for pre Exif 2.21 files that didn't shoot as sRGB - more than likely AdobeRGB but there wasn't always a safe way to tell for sure).

And technically, if Nikon is following Exif rules then the profile should really be the standard sRGB profile, right?  I think they created their own profiles to avoid copyright issues.

Why don't you use AdobeRGB?  Of course this same discussion could happen again since Nikon has their own version of AdobeRGB. 

--dennis

[Marko]

Hi Dennis, thanks for your reply.  The reason I don't use Adobe 1998 is because I sometimes print the jpegs on my Selphy printer or at a minilab down the street and changing color spaces is one less thing to do.  Any enlargements, etc I'll open in Capture NX in Nikon Adobe RGB.  I edit about 500-1000 images down to about 10 or 20 selects and then further edit down to 2 or 3.  I find editing that last 10 or 20 on a monitor tiresome, so I like to lay prints out on my coffee table like the old days.

I did a quick comparison and from what I can see is that images that I use PM to ingest where it has embedded the color space have nicer blacks.  When I don't embed them with PM or use Nikon's View NX (with their Nikon sRGB embedded) to ingest the photos are lacking contrast when I bring them up in CS3.  Weirdly, the embedded and unembedded photos where I used PM's ingest feature appear fine in PM.  It's only once I bring them up in CS3 that I notice the difference, so I'm assuming the problem is Nikon's color space and CS3, and not with PM.  The files that I have ingested and embedded with View NX appear lacking in contrast whether in CS3 or when I look at them in PM.  I have CS3 set to preserve the color space as it opens them.  It's really weird.

[Hayo Baan]

Marko, Dennis,

as far as I know, the Nikon AdobeRGB and Nikon sRGB are equal to their non-Nikon counterparts.  From what I understood, the Nikon ones just contain a bit more information/accuracy.

Also have a look at http://www.earthboundlight.com/phototips/nikon-srgb-nikon-adobe-rgb.html

Cheers,
    Hayo

[Marko]

Yes, the Nikon profiles are apparently the same.  Upon closer examination though, what I'm noticing is that the profile that is just called  "sRGB Profile" that I'm assuming comes with PM looks better than the official sRGB IEC 61966-2-1 or Nikon's sRGB.  I can't figure this out.  When I view something in PM it looks great, when I open it in CS3 whether it was tagged with sRGB IEC 61966-2-1 or Nikon's sRGB it appears with less contrast.  I don't know if this is what it's supposed to look like or if I'm going nuts.  Perhaps this generic "sRGB Profile" that is listed inherently has more contrast?  I tried sending the two files to a friend and he said the images tagged with the generic "sRGB profile" that comes with PM looks way punchier than the two with the official sRGB or Nikon's version. 

Thanks for the link though, Hayo. 

M.

[Hayo Baan]

Yes, the Nikon profiles are apparently the same.  Upon closer examination though, what I'm noticing is that the profile that is just called  "sRGB Profile" that I'm assuming comes with PM looks better than the official sRGB IEC 61966-2-1 or Nikon's sRGB.  I can't figure this out.  When I view something in PM it looks great, when I open it in CS3 whether it was tagged with sRGB IEC 61966-2-1 or Nikon's sRGB it appears with less contrast.  I don't know if this is what it's supposed to look like or if I'm going nuts.  Perhaps this generic "sRGB Profile" that is listed inherently has more contrast?  I tried sending the two files to a friend and he said the images tagged with the generic "sRGB profile" that comes with PM looks way punchier than the two with the official sRGB or Nikon's version. 

Are you by any chance looking at RAW files?  If that's the case it could very well be that you see a difference.  This has nothing to do with the profile though, but more with the fact that with PM you are looking at the jpg preview image, with all the camera settings and processing applied.  CS3 on the other hand, reinterprets the RAW file from scratch, and without any settings changes, will show you a different result.  Also note that RAW data inherently has no colour profile, the profile is attached as part of the RAW-data interpretation.  For instance: While all my photo's are said to come out of the camera as Nikon AdobeRGB, I tell my RAW image processor to "assign" ProPhotoRGB instead. This has no visible impact on the image, underwriting the fact that the sensor data is profile-less (the actual sensor profile is in fact slightly bigger than even proPhoto!)

If you were looking at JPG images on the other hand, it would be interesting to see if you really get a difference if you take the exact same image through the two routes.  If everything is all right, you should get NO differences.  If you do, I would be questioning the profiles themselves...

Thanks for the link though, Hayo. 

You're welcome!

[dennis]

Yes, the Nikon profiles are apparently the same.

As Hayo's link points out, Nikon's "Adobe RGB compatible" profile is pretty much the same but not exactly the same.  The coordinates differ just slightly (and probably unnoticeably).  Maybe Nikon didn't feel comfortable with simply taking the same exact definition and putting their own name on it.  I wouldn't blame them...  Nikon used to embed their "Adobe RGB compatible" profile in the camera but stopped that for some reason (perhaps with Exif 2.21).

Upon closer examination though, what I'm noticing is that the profile that is just called  "sRGB Profile" that I'm assuming comes with PM looks better than the official sRGB IEC 61966-2-1 or Nikon's sRGB.  I can't figure this out.

PM loads the sRGB profile from your system.  On the Mac we ask the color manager for the system profile path (e.g. /System/Library/ColorSync/Profiles) and look for "sRGB Profile.icc".  This is Apple's version of sRGB, and it doesn't employ a gamma table like the standard sRGB profile, it just uses the standard 2.2 gamma coefficient.  This would explain why it may look better (although I suppose it is technically not the official sRGB profile).  On Windows, we look for "sRGB Color Space Profile.icm" which I believe is HP's copy of the sRGB IEC 61966-2-1 standard (its been a long time since I've looked-into this so I could be wrong).

--dennis

[Marko]

Thanks again guys.  Sorry, I have been away, meant to say thanks for the input.  As an update, I upgraded to Leopard yesterday and for some reason, everything appears fine now.  JPEGs viewed in PM appear exactly the same in CS3, whether sRGB, Adobe 1998, or Nikon's variants.  I have no idea how upgrading to Leopard remedied this, but I must have had a color management setting wrong somewhere.  Thanks again...

M.

[Hayo Baan]

Marko, your welcome, and thanks for reporting your success!