Author Topic: Looks Great in PhotoMechanic, Crap in CameraRaw  (Read 6718 times)

Offline RichardFreedman

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Looks Great in PhotoMechanic, Crap in CameraRaw
« on: October 20, 2008, 05:02:25 PM »
First-time post, couldn't find this topic already posted (sorry if I missed it).
Professional photographer (yeah, right...), running latest Mac OS X (10.5.5) on an X-Rite-calibrated Intel iMac, max'd out to 3 GB RAM; shooting CR2 files with a 5D. 
My well-exposed RAW files look fantastic in Photo Mechanic (latest ver 4.5.3.1), but lose all their color/vibrance/saturation when opened in CS3 Photoshop's CameraRaw (latest ver 4.6).  A fellow wedding pro with identical gear claims that Adobe never got the Canon algorithms right, and insists that Canon's DPP software is the true way to process these files, which offer a default that pretty much matches Photo Mechanic's preview (I can't use Canon's horrible ImageBrowser, absolutely sucks compared to PM), thus lacking that washed-out result from Photoshop.  Is he right?  I find it hard to believe that Photoshop/CameraRaw, the world standard, is wrong; am I perhaps just missing a setting somewhere?  Has anyone else experienced this problem?  I realize this is really a Photoshop support inquiry and not a Photo Mechanic one, but something tells me you guys will be a bit more straight with me.    Thanks for any help you can provide. 
BTW: just wondering, is there any talk of bringing Photo Mechanic to the next level, a full-fledged RAW processor, rather than just a browser?  I only ask because everything else you do works so much better than anybody else's.


Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Looks Great in PhotoMechanic, Crap in CameraRaw
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2008, 05:14:42 PM »
Richard,

First-time post, couldn't find this topic already posted (sorry if I missed it).
Professional photographer (yeah, right...), running latest Mac OS X (10.5.5) on an X-Rite-calibrated Intel iMac, max'd out to 3 GB RAM; shooting CR2 files with a 5D. 
My well-exposed RAW files look fantastic in Photo Mechanic (latest ver 4.5.3.1), but lose all their color/vibrance/saturation when opened in CS3 Photoshop's CameraRaw (latest ver 4.6).  A fellow wedding pro with identical gear claims that Adobe never got the Canon algorithms right, and insists that Canon's DPP software is the true way to process these files, which offer a default that pretty much matches Photo Mechanic's preview (I can't use Canon's horrible ImageBrowser, absolutely sucks compared to PM), thus lacking that washed-out result from Photoshop.  Is he right?  I find it hard to believe that Photoshop/CameraRaw, the world standard, is wrong; am I perhaps just missing a setting somewhere?  Has anyone else experienced this problem?  I realize this is really a Photoshop support inquiry and not a Photo Mechanic one, but something tells me you guys will be a bit more straight with me.    Thanks for any help you can provide. 
BTW: just wondering, is there any talk of bringing Photo Mechanic to the next level, a full-fledged RAW processor, rather than just a browser?  I only ask because everything else you do works so much better than anybody else's.

The reason PM's look matches the look you see in DPP is because PM is showing you the embedded JPEG preview generated by the camera when the photo was taken.  Canon's DPP by default will render as shot with the same color that the camera would produce for a JPEG.

I can't speak for ACR or Lightroom, but I have heard the same things that you described.

HTH,

-Kirk

Offline RichardFreedman

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Re: Looks Great in PhotoMechanic, Crap in CameraRaw
« Reply #2 on: October 20, 2008, 06:03:09 PM »
I just talked to another wedding photographer who acknowledges this condition, and chooses to shoot High JPG along with RAW; he claims that while he archives the RAWs, he rarely if ever uses them, finding the JPGs more than adequate.  I guess this works, but seems like a busy workflow that defeats the purpose & benefits of RAW.  Can't say I'm a huge fan of DPP's interface; wonder if anyone has had any experience with Canon CR2 files and Capture One or Aperture, and how those apps address this problem.

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Looks Great in PhotoMechanic, Crap in CameraRaw
« Reply #3 on: October 20, 2008, 06:29:46 PM »
I just talked to another wedding photographer who acknowledges this condition, and chooses to shoot High JPG along with RAW; he claims that while he archives the RAWs, he rarely if ever uses them, finding the JPGs more than adequate.  I guess this works, but seems like a busy workflow that defeats the purpose & benefits of RAW.  Can't say I'm a huge fan of DPP's interface; wonder if anyone has had any experience with Canon CR2 files and Capture One or Aperture, and how those apps address this problem.

I can tell you that shooting RAW+JPEG doesn't really slow down the workflow in PM at all (other than the increased Ingest time) and PM can treat the RAW and JPEG as a single photo so you don't have to deal with seeing each image twice.  Also, captioning, renaming, tagging, rating, and color class are applied to both images at once.

HTH,

-Kirk

Offline RichardFreedman

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Re: Looks Great in PhotoMechanic, Crap in CameraRaw
« Reply #4 on: October 20, 2008, 08:40:45 PM »
Kirk,
I just noticed for the first time the "Save Photos As" feature in PM's File menu; been using the program for years, and had no idea that it IS a processor too!  However, upon giving it a spin, it results in the same disappointing results as CR-to-Photoshop, so I guess that imbedded JPG has no bearing on how the RAW is processed, only viewed.  Anyway, I'm gonna try the RAW+JPG system on my next job (too bad about my already-shot RAW-only files...)
Thanks again for all the advice & time!
-Richard 

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Looks Great in PhotoMechanic, Crap in CameraRaw
« Reply #5 on: October 20, 2008, 08:51:06 PM »
I just noticed for the first time the "Save Photos As" feature in PM's File menu; been using the program for years, and had no idea that it IS a processor too!  However, upon giving it a spin, it results in the same disappointing results as CR-to-Photoshop, so I guess that imbedded JPG has no bearing on how the RAW is processed, only viewed.  Anyway, I'm gonna try the RAW+JPG system on my next job (too bad about my already-shot RAW-only files...)
Thanks again for all the advice & time!

That's because the Mac version can use Apple's ImageIO to do the rendering.  In the upcoming 4.6 version you'll be able to Save As from the embedded JPEG and get the results you were hoping for (limited to the resolution of the embedded JPEG.)

-Kirk

Offline mbbphoto

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Re: Looks Great in PhotoMechanic, Crap in CameraRaw
« Reply #6 on: October 21, 2008, 03:39:53 AM »
FWIW CS4 and Lightroom 2 have new algorithyms available that appear to be much improved...
Marc
Marc

Offline FVlcek

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Re: Looks Great in PhotoMechanic, Crap in CameraRaw
« Reply #7 on: October 21, 2008, 06:21:10 PM »
Hi, if I can make a few suggestions from a fellow photographer, not one affiliated with Photomechanic other as an user...

1) Buy and read a good book about RAW camera format. I suggest the one by Bruce Fraser. Simply put, from your questions, you seem to not understand what really is RAW photo file format and its uses and workflow implications.

2) Print and read the Photomechanic manual (available as download PDF from camerabits.com) throuroughly. It's quite well written, and explains a lot.

3) Afterwards, do some research and try the different software for RAW to JPEG/TIFF conversion if you want to continue RAW workflow. Otherwise, if it seems too difficult, just stick to JPEGs and don't bother with RAWs. RAW is a NEGATIVE, like with FILM, and if you are not willing/able to work with it like with a negative film in the old-fashioned darkroom, and just want finished files, JPEG can be a better / time-saving choice. Even if JPEGs have their compromises, RAW files ALWAYS need adjustment/developing just like old-fashioned film.

4) When you are proficient with RAW development, and want to use Adobe products for it, download Adobe Camera colour profiles and select them in Lightroom / Camera Raw. These will make the colours much closer to what the camera sees in JPEG mode, and really do improve colour rendition for both Canon and Nikon cameras.

5) Remember, RAW files are Negatives. They need development just like film to look good.

Sorry if this seems like patronising, but you seem not to grasp the real difference between RAW and JPEG files - that is, RAW files are uncooked, raw, negative-like files, which depend on your processing of them and the software used to do the processing to make them into finished files. So before you do understand the difference, either stick with JPEGs or learn it.

6) Photomechanic can be used to its best with both JPEGs or RAW files for its purpose, that is in my humble opinion a fast selection of few keepers from thousands of photographs very quickly. It's not a RAW development software, and if you think so, JPEG workflow would probably be the best for you. Although, it can be very well integrated in a RAW only workflow, thanks to all it has to offer (actually, I don't know of any better software to select, caption and send photos from a shoot). Working with RAW files you just need to make a good workflow to accommodate all the steps including RAW development.

7) If you go the RAW way, I suggest you use Photomechanic as the first step in Ingesting the photos, Captioning them, selecting your keepers, then developing the keepers from RAW to finished files in the conversion software of your choice (For Canon files, DPP was the choice for colour fidelity, with the before-mentioned Adobe colour profiles for Canon, Adobe software is in my opinion a better choice now than DPP, as it is easier to develop a number of files at once with it).

8) Overall, Ingest and select with Photomechanic. Develop with Adobe Camera Raw or Lightroom using the new Adobe camera colour profiles. Save the developed files back to the same or different folder, and caption them and send them using Photomechanic again. That's my workflow and I think it works the best

9) Remember, RAW files are "uncooked", raw, and need development to look the best. If you are not willing / not have time for it / just stick with JPEGs from the camera, which are already "cooked" by the camera itself software.

Hope this helps, Frantisek

Offline RichardFreedman

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Re: Looks Great in PhotoMechanic, Crap in CameraRaw
« Reply #8 on: October 21, 2008, 09:59:18 PM »
Thanks for the advice & direction Frantisek.  I've actually been a RAW shooter for 3 years, been for the most part happy with it, as I shoot people and can usually get a skintone that works, but I must say that I rather like Canon's interpretation of the file, and often like the idea of using it as a starting point, rather than ACR's flat/neutral default.  I however recently was working on a food job with a stylist/client, we loved the images when brought up in PM, then upon clicking "Edit" watched ACR kill everything with it's default, listening to my client scream "What Happened!?!"  With the same image launched side-by-side in both PM and ACR on the same monitor, I can play with the sliders all I want, there's no way I'm going to get the ACR image to match what PM is showing me; I'm not deluding myself by claiming that the Canon default is correct or accurate, I know it most likely isn't, but more times than not, it's what I find visually desirable, very much like many of my old favorite films.
Anyway, since originally posting, I did discover the beta profiles on the Adobe Lab website, and am wow'd by just how well this solution solves my problem; while not a 100% match to the Canon look as seen in PM and DPP, it's pretty much 90%, which is good enough for me (and my client); my reds/oranges are back!  One day I just may learn how to make that happen manually with the sliders in an efficient manner (I'm pretty good with the ACR controls otherwise, but matching an existing look, forget it).  Needless to say, DPP has finally been retired.

Offline RichardFreedman

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Re: Looks Great in PhotoMechanic, Crap in CameraRaw
« Reply #9 on: October 21, 2008, 10:11:15 PM »
And, as for your advice to just shoot JPG, there's alot to be said for that method, especially for a wedding shooter like me; with my first DSLR (Canon 10D) I would have never dreamed of doing so, the files just weren't there yet, but with my current 5D, I've decided that on my next wedding I'm going to shoot RAW+highJPG, then archive the RAW's on DL-DVD and forget about them until a need pops up for them (large wall portrait, etc), and just work with the JPGs for both proofing and album design.  Gary Fong on his "Getting Rich" DVD questions the need for the modern wedding shooter to bother with RAW, and I think he's right, but I still like the idea of shooting both as an insurance policy.  Our modern-day DSLRs are creating better JPGs than ever, yet we've all been indoctrinated by the RAW evangelicals, when as you said, maybe sometimes RAW is not the best answer.  I appreciate the idea of the landscape artist spending half a day on a single image, but that's just not my reality. 
With that said, thank goodness we have an app like Photo Mechanic, which lets us speed through our RAWs just as quickly as our JPGs, really the only browser that's gotten it right.  WHEN DO WE GET 4.6?

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Looks Great in PhotoMechanic, Crap in CameraRaw
« Reply #10 on: October 21, 2008, 11:17:41 PM »
Richard,

WHEN DO WE GET 4.6?

As soon as we're able to get the last few features done.

-Kirk