Author Topic: XMP data suddenly missing after edit with NX2  (Read 10404 times)

Offline Juerg

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XMP data suddenly missing after edit with NX2
« on: November 12, 2008, 03:21:32 PM »
Working on a XP machine, I had my workflow to process Nikon D200 NEF files set like that for a few month now:

1. Ingest, caption, keywording, adding contact info (website, e-mail, copyright etc.) in PM
2. Open in NX2, edit save as a NEF (with edits) and a new TIFF
3. Open the new TIFF in CS3 for final edits

Everything worked fine until I started to notice about a week and a half ago that when I save the TIFF in NX2, some of the metadata is lost. Specifically the following fields:

- Copyright URL
- Contact e-mail
- Contact URL

I know for a fact that this was not the case before as I have quite a few files from the last few month that proof it.

The only thing that I'm not sure of is whether NX2 was updated a couple of weeks ago. I currently have version 2.1.0.

Has anyone a idea what suddenly goes on?

Thankful for any tips or hints.

Juerg
« Last Edit: November 12, 2008, 03:26:37 PM by archer69 »

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: XMP data suddenly missing after edit with NX2
« Reply #1 on: November 12, 2008, 04:23:08 PM »
Juerg,

Working on a XP machine, I had my workflow to process Nikon D200 NEF files set like that for a few month now:

1. Ingest, caption, keywording, adding contact info (website, e-mail, copyright etc.) in PM
2. Open in NX2, edit save as a NEF (with edits) and a new TIFF
3. Open the new TIFF in CS3 for final edits

Everything worked fine until I started to notice about a week and a half ago that when I save the TIFF in NX2, some of the metadata is lost. Specifically the following fields:

- Copyright URL
- Contact e-mail
- Contact URL

I know for a fact that this was not the case before as I have quite a few files from the last few month that proof it.

The only thing that I'm not sure of is whether NX2 was updated a couple of weeks ago. I currently have version 2.1.0.

Has anyone a idea what suddenly goes on?

The three fields you referenced above are XMP-only fields.  I suppose it is possible that NX2 no longer preserves XMP data when saving as a TIFF.  If you want to send me a file I can look at it with a hex editor and see if that is what is going on.  Please click on my name to the left of this message, then click on the 'personal message' link.  I will respond with upload instructions.

-Kirk

Offline Juerg

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Re: XMP data suddenly missing after edit with NX2
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2008, 02:49:50 PM »
Files uploaded  :)

Juerg

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: XMP data suddenly missing after edit with NX2
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2008, 03:46:25 PM »
Juerg,

Working on a XP machine, I had my workflow to process Nikon D200 NEF files set like that for a few month now:

1. Ingest, caption, keywording, adding contact info (website, e-mail, copyright etc.) in PM
2. Open in NX2, edit save as a NEF (with edits) and a new TIFF
3. Open the new TIFF in CS3 for final edits

Everything worked fine until I started to notice about a week and a half ago that when I save the TIFF in NX2, some of the metadata is lost. Specifically the following fields:

- Copyright URL
- Contact e-mail
- Contact URL

I know for a fact that this was not the case before as I have quite a few files from the last few month that proof it.

The only thing that I'm not sure of is whether NX2 was updated a couple of weeks ago. I currently have version 2.1.0.

Has anyone a idea what suddenly goes on?

I received your files and examined them.  The problem is that you haven't embedded XMP into your NEF files.  Capture NX2 ignores XMP sidecar files.  Because your NEF files do have embedded IPTC data in them, that IPTC data made its way into your final TIFF files.  Because your NEF file did not contain any XMP data, the XMP data you have in your XMP sidecar files did not make its way into your final TIFF files.

To correct this problem, make sure you embed IPTC4XMP into your NEF files with Photo Mechanic.

HTH,

-Kirk

Offline Juerg

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Re: XMP data suddenly missing after edit with NX2
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2008, 12:19:09 PM »
Thanks Kirk.

I was not aware that I did change the XMP setting for RAW files and actually thought I had it always set to NOT include it in NEF files due to issues with Adobe products that don't update embedded XMP and would cause a mismatch.

But from what you say it seems that I had it set before and must have changed it during the last PM version update (probably when setting the urgency field option for labels/ratings).

But then I have a problem: some of my files have XMP embedded, some not. That could call for disaster in the future when using an Adobe application (mainly Bridge, even if very seldom) for the ones that have it embedded.

Just a question:
PM doesn't need XMP sidecar files. Capture NX2 doesn't use them. So there is no real need to have them generated in PM, but they get generated automatically by Adobe products. Could there be a function in PM that can be selected to automatically delete XMP files when present AND the embed XMP is selected for RAW files?

Just trying to find a way to finally get a handle on this issue.

Juerg




Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: XMP data suddenly missing after edit with NX2
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2008, 01:56:37 PM »
Juerg,

But then I have a problem: some of my files have XMP embedded, some not. That could call for disaster in the future when using an Adobe application (mainly Bridge, even if very seldom) for the ones that have it embedded.

Just a question:
PM doesn't need XMP sidecar files. Capture NX2 doesn't use them. So there is no real need to have them generated in PM, but they get generated automatically by Adobe products. Could there be a function in PM that can be selected to automatically delete XMP files when present AND the embed XMP is selected for RAW files?

Unfortunately the choice of Capture NX2 wanting embedded XMP and Adobe products wanting XMP sidecar files is conflicting.  If you want to get Capture NX2 to push your metadata from the NEF all the way through to JPEGs or TIFFs then you'll have to use embedded XMP.  If you want to use Adobe products and you want to do RAW adjustments then you better make sure you don't embed XMP and use only XMP sidecar files.

There is a conflict there and there is no single solution.  Your suggestion of deleting the XMP files is a possible solution but requires that you do some operation in PM before you go and use Bridge.  Outright deleting the XMP file may not be prudent since any adjustments made in a usage of Bridge would be lost.  PM would have to merge the XMP sidecar data into the embedded XMP data before deleting the XMP data.  I think this would be best served by a Tool in Photo Mechanic that is manually run by the user.

One question: if you have PM and you have Capture NX2, what do you need Adobe Bridge for anyway?

-Kirk

Offline Juerg

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Re: XMP data suddenly missing after edit with NX2
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2008, 12:23:18 AM »
Hi Kirk,

Juerg,

But then I have a problem: some of my files have XMP embedded, some not. That could call for disaster in the future when using an Adobe application (mainly Bridge, even if very seldom) for the ones that have it embedded.

Just a question:
PM doesn't need XMP sidecar files. Capture NX2 doesn't use them. So there is no real need to have them generated in PM, but they get generated automatically by Adobe products. Could there be a function in PM that can be selected to automatically delete XMP files when present AND the embed XMP is selected for RAW files?

Unfortunately the choice of Capture NX2 wanting embedded XMP and Adobe products wanting XMP sidecar files is conflicting.  If you want to get Capture NX2 to push your metadata from the NEF all the way through to JPEGs or TIFFs then you'll have to use embedded XMP. 

Well, I looked a little back and I noticed that only a very few TIFF files that I generated out for NX have the XMP data embedded, and I'm now pretty sure they got added after the fact while doing some changes in PM. Means that I always had the XMP data missing. I acutally had (and still have) the PM preferences set as suggested on page 115 of the manual. Is that still you suggestion or do you think adding XMP is now the better way? Just asking because it's also mentioned that embedding XMP in to RAW files may cause problems with NEF files. And if I embedd XMP, shall I still always create and update sidecar files?

If you want to use Adobe products and you want to do RAW adjustments then you better make sure you don't embed XMP and use only XMP sidecar files.

I don't use Adobe (Bridge or ACR) for RAW adjustments. But once in a while I start Bridge to search for specific pictures on my HD. As I use a XP machine, I can't do that with PM without having to open the whole HD with all pictures in a single contact sheet. But still, all RAW files automatically get a XMP sidecar file.

There is a conflict there and there is no single solution.  Your suggestion of deleting the XMP files is a possible solution but requires that you do some operation in PM before you go and use Bridge.  Outright deleting the XMP file may not be prudent since any adjustments made in a usage of Bridge would be lost.  PM would have to merge the XMP sidecar data into the embedded XMP data before deleting the XMP data.  I think this would be best served by a Tool in Photo Mechanic that is manually run by the user.

One question: if you have PM and you have Capture NX2, what do you need Adobe Bridge for anyway?

I explained above why I use Bridge for time to time. But the tool you mentioned sounds interesting. Or even further, if I have a NEF file with both embedded XMP and XMP sidecar file, I can set PM to always update both as a standard. Going into Bridge it reads the embedded XMP before the sidecar file, but now I do make a change in Bridge, so only the sidecar file is updated.

Could there be a tool in PM that whenever a NEF file is opened in a contact sheet, PM automatically compares (perhaps by using a time stamp feature) the embedded XMP and XMP sidecar file, and in case the sidecar file is newer, it updated the embedded XMP or vice versa?

Juerg




Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: XMP data suddenly missing after edit with NX2
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2008, 06:30:35 AM »
Juerg,

But then I have a problem: some of my files have XMP embedded, some not. That could call for disaster in the future when using an Adobe application (mainly Bridge, even if very seldom) for the ones that have it embedded.

Just a question:
PM doesn't need XMP sidecar files. Capture NX2 doesn't use them. So there is no real need to have them generated in PM, but they get generated automatically by Adobe products. Could there be a function in PM that can be selected to automatically delete XMP files when present AND the embed XMP is selected for RAW files?

Unfortunately the choice of Capture NX2 wanting embedded XMP and Adobe products wanting XMP sidecar files is conflicting.  If you want to get Capture NX2 to push your metadata from the NEF all the way through to JPEGs or TIFFs then you'll have to use embedded XMP. 

Well, I looked a little back and I noticed that only a very few TIFF files that I generated out for NX have the XMP data embedded, and I'm now pretty sure they got added after the fact while doing some changes in PM. Means that I always had the XMP data missing. I acutally had (and still have) the PM preferences set as suggested on page 115 of the manual. Is that still you suggestion or do you think adding XMP is now the better way? Just asking because it's also mentioned that embedding XMP in to RAW files may cause problems with NEF files. And if I embedd XMP, shall I still always create and update sidecar files?

If you want XMP metadata to make it through to output files in Capture NX2, you're going to have to embed IPTC4XMP in your NEF files.

Quote from: archer69
There is a conflict there and there is no single solution.  Your suggestion of deleting the XMP files is a possible solution but requires that you do some operation in PM before you go and use Bridge.  Outright deleting the XMP file may not be prudent since any adjustments made in a usage of Bridge would be lost.  PM would have to merge the XMP sidecar data into the embedded XMP data before deleting the XMP data.  I think this would be best served by a Tool in Photo Mechanic that is manually run by the user.

One question: if you have PM and you have Capture NX2, what do you need Adobe Bridge for anyway?

I explained above why I use Bridge for time to time. But the tool you mentioned sounds interesting. Or even further, if I have a NEF file with both embedded XMP and XMP sidecar file, I can set PM to always update both as a standard. Going into Bridge it reads the embedded XMP before the sidecar file, but now I do make a change in Bridge, so only the sidecar file is updated.

Could there be a tool in PM that whenever a NEF file is opened in a contact sheet, PM automatically compares (perhaps by using a time stamp feature) the embedded XMP and XMP sidecar file, and in case the sidecar file is newer, it updated the embedded XMP or vice versa?

There could be a Tool that could do that, but Tools in Photo Mechanic aren't 'automatic': they only execute when you choose them from the Tools menu.

Since you're on Windows and the only reason you're using Adobe Bridge is for searching, why not just use Google's Picasa instead?  It does searches quite well from what I hear and it's free.  I also doubt that it has issues with embedded IPTC4XMP and sidecar XMP files.

HTH,

-Kirk

Offline Juerg

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Re: XMP data suddenly missing after edit with NX2
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2008, 05:56:02 PM »
Kirk,

I'll give Picasa a try. I know I downloaded it once quite a while back and didn't like it then (don't remember why), but perhaps it was updated since and I don't have an issue any longer.

Thanks,
Juerg

Offline Juerg

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Re: XMP data suddenly missing after edit with NX2
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2008, 11:20:25 PM »
Kirk,

I installed Picasa 3 in the hope it will allow me to search for keyword, but it seems not to work. Any idea why????

Juerg

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: XMP data suddenly missing after edit with NX2
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2008, 06:14:01 AM »
Juerg,

I installed Picasa 3 in the hope it will allow me to search for keyword, but it seems not to work. Any idea why????

No.  I have never used Picasa before.  I've only heard good things about it though.  They probably have a support forum for it...

-Kirk