Author Topic: PM to become a DAM...  (Read 10806 times)

Offline Scott Sherman

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PM to become a DAM...
« on: December 10, 2008, 09:04:32 PM »
The rumors are pretty ubiquitous on the forums about PM evolving into a full Digital Asset Manager.  I spoke to the tech support at Camera Bits and was informed that it has been in development for about 6 months now and is almost certainly coming (hopefully sooner than later).  My question is; if Camera Bits does announce a full DAM application, will it be an upgrade to PM or will it be another application that will be available for separate purchase?  I am deciding whether to purchase Photo Mechanic at this time (using the 20 day trial) and don't want to lay out $150 to be told that I must also pay more to obtain the new Camera Bits DAM.

I intend to use PM as a front end browser for NX2 on my Mac machine and using spotlight and keywords, it already does a pretty respectable job if I am careful about doing my own catalog system over several drives.

Online Kirk Baker

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Re: PM to become a DAM...
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2008, 10:16:16 PM »
Scott,

The rumors are pretty ubiquitous on the forums about PM evolving into a full Digital Asset Manager.  I spoke to the tech support at Camera Bits and was informed that it has been in development for about 6 months now and is almost certainly coming (hopefully sooner than later).  My question is; if Camera Bits does announce a full DAM application, will it be an upgrade to PM or will it be another application that will be available for separate purchase?  I am deciding whether to purchase Photo Mechanic at this time (using the 20 day trial) and don't want to lay out $150 to be told that I must also pay more to obtain the new Camera Bits DAM.

We haven't decided if the cataloging component/application will or will not be a part of Photo Mechanic itself.

-Kirk

Offline Scott Sherman

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Re: PM to become a DAM...
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2008, 10:37:22 PM »
Kirk,
Thank you for your response.  I am impressed, since the application is still in development and most companies seem to be very secretive about their unannounced products.  However, since you were kind enough to comment, I would love to know if you can give me (us) a window of when we might expect to see the first public version available.  Even a beta would be welcome at this point.  It is very frustrating to use Capture NX2 without some sort of cataloging application.  We have been spoiled by LR and Aperture now not to mention the other capable apps out there.  I have faith that Camera Bits will come out with a great DAM if and when it happens so I am hanging in there for your announcement. 

If you could tell me the exact date of the release I won't tell anyone, I promise.  I have my credit card at the ready.

Online Kirk Baker

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Re: PM to become a DAM...
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2008, 10:58:24 PM »
Kirk,
Thank you for your response.  I am impressed, since the application is still in development and most companies seem to be very secretive about their unannounced products.  However, since you were kind enough to comment, I would love to know if you can give me (us) a window of when we might expect to see the first public version available.  Even a beta would be welcome at this point.  It is very frustrating to use Capture NX2 without some sort of cataloging application.  We have been spoiled by LR and Aperture now not to mention the other capable apps out there.  I have faith that Camera Bits will come out with a great DAM if and when it happens so I am hanging in there for your announcement. 

If you could tell me the exact date of the release I won't tell anyone, I promise.  I have my credit card at the ready.

I have no time window for you.  I honestly do not know when it will be finished.  It is being worked on and is a high priority task for parts of our team.

-Kirk

Offline Scott Sherman

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Re: PM to become a DAM...
« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2008, 01:01:37 PM »
Thanks again Kirk.  I promise this will be the last question regarding this topic and I understand if you are getting tired of responding to these questions, but I can't help but wonder, (and I think I speak for many here).  What is taking so long.  Not being fascias here, really.  I have seen threads going back over a year in some Photography Forums saying that you are in the process of developing this DAM.  There are numerous models that you have available to work from so it's not like you have to reinvent the wheel so to speak and your existing software is superior and I think could easily be implemented into what DAM you might come up with which (I think) should make it even easier to come up with a finished product. 

I ask because I am on the fence of purchasing some form of DAM to use with NX2, but I am not happy with the choices I am aware of and would like to hold out for yours, if I just had a sense that you are at some final stage of development or at least what the problem is so that I could better understand what is taking so long. 

Not looking for a technical explanation here or anything revealing proprietary technology, just some encouragement to know that I (we) are not waiting for nothing or to at least get a sense that you (Camera Bits) are sympathetic to the plight of your customers who want to support you and put money in your pockets

Thanks again, I know you are probably as tired of answering these questions as we are of asking them but inquiring minds really, really do want to know. 

Offline devenh

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Re: PM to become a DAM...
« Reply #5 on: December 12, 2008, 08:05:06 PM »
I think one of the challenges Camera Bits faces is that it develops for the PC and Mac at the same time, and this simply takes more time.

Deven

Offline Rguzmanphoto

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Re: PM to become a DAM...
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2008, 08:37:52 PM »
I would rather see it as a separate program, if it means that adding it to PM would slow it down, just my 2 cents.

Offline vAfotoriporter

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Re: PM to become a DAM...
« Reply #7 on: December 12, 2008, 11:06:47 PM »
It would be best not to be forced to add every image to a database. This part is what I hate about Aperture and LightRoom. I like to use them as EDITOR but most of the cases I don't need their database features and with both programs it is complicated to remove a photo from the database structure.

I'm sure CameraBits will do a great job again with the cataloging and they certainly know PM is often used by field photographers who need to run through hundreds of images quickly to send them to the paper and for what they need no cataloging on this part. So I think whatever they will come up will be a good solution and it won't be in the way of using PM as it can be now: the best user interface for arranging your images.
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Offline Hayo Baan

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Re: PM to become a DAM...
« Reply #8 on: December 13, 2008, 05:26:53 AM »
It would be best not to be forced to add every image to a database. This part is what I hate about Aperture and LightRoom. I like to use them as EDITOR but most of the cases I don't need their database features and with both programs it is complicated to remove a photo from the database structure.

I'm sure CameraBits will do a great job again with the cataloging and they certainly know PM is often used by field photographers who need to run through hundreds of images quickly to send them to the paper and for what they need no cataloging on this part. So I think whatever they will come up will be a good solution and it won't be in the way of using PM as it can be now: the best user interface for arranging your images.

Hear hear! Not only do I fully agree on keeping the two functions separate (browser/tagger/… versus catalogue/database), but I too am very confident this is exactly how CameraBits envisions it as well. Be it integrated into "one" product/application, or as two separate products/applications.

Cheers,
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Offline Scott Sherman

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Re: PM to become a DAM...
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2008, 08:11:40 PM »
This very subject has been the topic at another popular Nikon Photographer forum where I advised that Camera Bits is in the process of developing a new DAM app that may be integrated into PM (or not) but in any event would be compatible with Nikon's Capture NX2.  This is the response of one of the forum members who is very involved in NX and seems pretty knowledgeable.

Quote from: Mike Buckley;2229965
Scott,

I doubt that any DAM program could be fully compatible with NX2.  That's because of Nikon, not the other developers such as Camera Bits.  The important fact that NX2 will not read sidecar files renders it incompatible with DAM software for the users that prefer applying the metadata to sidecar files rather than embedding it in the RAW file.  Another example of incompatibility is that NX2 uses nine color labels plus a colorless label whereas the rest of the industry has standardized on five color labels plus a colorless label.

I wonder if he is correct and if so, are we wasting our time waiting for something that can not happen and will not happen?

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Re: PM to become a DAM...
« Reply #10 on: December 13, 2008, 08:51:13 PM »
Scott,

This very subject has been the topic at another popular Nikon Photographer forum where I advised that Camera Bits is in the process of developing a new DAM app that may be integrated into PM (or not) but in any event would be compatible with Nikon's Capture NX2.  This is the response of one of the forum members who is very involved in NX and seems pretty knowledgeable.

Quote from: Mike Buckley;2229965
Scott,

I doubt that any DAM program could be fully compatible with NX2.  That's because of Nikon, not the other developers such as Camera Bits.  The important fact that NX2 will not read sidecar files renders it incompatible with DAM software for the users that prefer applying the metadata to sidecar files rather than embedding it in the RAW file.  Another example of incompatibility is that NX2 uses nine color labels plus a colorless label whereas the rest of the industry has standardized on five color labels plus a colorless label.

I wonder if he is correct and if so, are we wasting our time waiting for something that can not happen and will not happen?

No, he is not entirely correct since Photo Mechanic is completely capable of embedding XMP into NEF files.  Photo Mechanic also has features to handle the extra color labels that NX2 uses (well we only support eight of the nine, but it works well in practice.)

-Kirk

P.S. I answered your earlier question as best as I can.  I will not elaborate further.  If you need a DAM solution in the near term, you'll have to look elsewhere.

Offline Hayo Baan

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Re: PM to become a DAM...
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2008, 02:38:05 AM »
Scott,

This very subject has been the topic at another popular Nikon Photographer forum where I advised that Camera Bits is in the process of developing a new DAM app that may be integrated into PM (or not) but in any event would be compatible with Nikon's Capture NX2.  This is the response of one of the forum members who is very involved in NX and seems pretty knowledgeable.

Quote from: Mike Buckley;2229965
Scott,

I doubt that any DAM program could be fully compatible with NX2.  That's because of Nikon, not the other developers such as Camera Bits.  The important fact that NX2 will not read sidecar files renders it incompatible with DAM software for the users that prefer applying the metadata to sidecar files rather than embedding it in the RAW file.  Another example of incompatibility is that NX2 uses nine color labels plus a colorless label whereas the rest of the industry has standardized on five color labels plus a colorless label.

I wonder if he is correct and if so, are we wasting our time waiting for something that can not happen and will not happen?

No, he is not entirely correct since Photo Mechanic is completely capable of embedding XMP into NEF files.  Photo Mechanic also has features to handle the extra color labels that NX2 uses (well we only support eight of the nine, but it works well in practice.)
I would even go a step further as to state he (Mike) is completely wrong! PM is completely compatible with NX2, and vice versa (just tell Capture to only use a maximum of 8 colour labels, there's an NX2 preference for that, as well as for their names and colours). Both read and write each other's meta data perfectly.

The only problem you might have is with using other programs (e.g. Lightroom, Bridge, PS, etc.) to manipulate the metadata. Though each of these programs is fully capable of reading the embedded metadata, they are incapable of updating it and have to use a sidecar file. IMHO this is an oversight of the other programs, not of Capture.

Hmm, I guess the fact that PM reads and writes the embedded XMP data of RAW files makes PM quite unique :)

Cheers,
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Offline Scott Sherman

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Re: PM to become a DAM...
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2008, 09:20:27 AM »
Thanks Kirk, I appreciate your comments and will wait patiently for the announcement of your DAM.  I am certain that CB's is working hard to make the best program they can and will put it out as soon as possible.

Offline TomM

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Re: PM to become a DAM...
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2008, 08:59:31 AM »
It would be best not to be forced to add every image to a database. This part is what I hate about Aperture and LightRoom. I like to use them as EDITOR but most of the cases I don't need their database features and with both programs it is complicated to remove a photo from the database structure....

Hear hear! Not only do I fully agree on keeping the two functions separate (browser/tagger/… versus catalogue/database), but I too am very confident this is exactly how CameraBits envisions it as well. Be it integrated into "one" product/application, or as two separate products/applications.

Cheers,
Ditto squared.  ;-)

I have an archive of > 55k images that I'm managing.   While searching that archive is fast in both Extensis Portfolio and IDImager, other functions such as adding new images, typically slows them waaaay down, so I presume the same would happen if a DAM were to be added to PM. 

Thus, my vote:  keep 'em separate.  Keep PM lean and mean.  There are many, many times I *only* want to ingest or review photos or manipulate metadata and anything that slows down such tasks would be painful.  Because of this, I typically update my DAM DB only at night or during slack moments.

Just my $0.02,

Tom M



running and if I had to wait for it

Tom M
« Last Edit: December 17, 2008, 09:03:39 AM by TomM »

Offline Scott Sherman

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Re: PM to become a DAM...
« Reply #14 on: December 26, 2008, 06:20:34 PM »
I understand your feelings about not wanting to import images into a DAM but in LR2 for example you just reference the images you want to catalog in what ever location they currently reside, if that is your preference.  This seems pretty friendly and easy to do.  I would actually like to see this implemented in a PM/DAM app.