Author Topic: 4.6 Beta 2, images that don't view.  (Read 7485 times)

Offline rcohn

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4.6 Beta 2, images that don't view.
« on: February 13, 2009, 09:54:48 AM »
Hi,

Beta 2 is doing a better job of showing LAB mode files. However, while it appears to handle layered Lab mode psd's OK; as soon as there is an Alpha Channel it can no longer preview. I resaved a psd file (with Alpha Channels) that PM can't preview as a Tiff and it does Preview. Maybe this problem will go away when PM has it's own psd render engine?

In addition, PM is reporting the LAB mode files ICC Profile as AdobeRGB.

I'm not sure if Alpha Channels are involved in every case when some 8 Bit RGB files don't preview while other files which are much larger do, but maybe this is the case. For example a psd that's 130MB won't but another that is 480MB will. I duplicated a 130MB file that doesn't view, deleted the Alpha Channels, and this file now views fine in PM. I may just be stating something you are aware of already. Again, maybe this will go away when you write the psd render engine. Good Luck!

Thanks,

Ric



Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: 4.6 Beta 2, images that don't view.
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2009, 10:04:11 AM »
Ric,

Beta 2 is doing a better job of showing LAB mode files. However, while it appears to handle layered Lab mode psd's OK; as soon as there is an Alpha Channel it can no longer preview. I resaved a psd file (with Alpha Channels) that PM can't preview as a Tiff and it does Preview. Maybe this problem will go away when PM has it's own psd render engine?

Photo Mechanic does now have its own PSD rendering engine.  I spent three days writing it this week.  That's why you're able to see Lab files at all now.  Can you share your Lab w/Alpha image with us?  Please click on my name to the left of this message, then click on the 'personal message' link.  I will respond with upload instructions.

Quote from: rcohn
In addition, PM is reporting the LAB mode files ICC Profile as AdobeRGB.

That's correct.  Lab is a device independent color space and during the conversion to a display color space we assign Adobe RGB 1998.

Quote from: rcohn
I'm not sure if Alpha Channels are involved in every case when some 8 Bit RGB files don't preview while other files which are much larger do, but maybe this is the case. For example a psd that's 130MB won't but another that is 480MB will. I duplicated a 130MB file that doesn't view, deleted the Alpha Channels, and this file now views fine in PM. I may just be stating something you are aware of already. Again, maybe this will go away when you write the psd render engine. Good Luck!

It's already written.  You likely wouldn't have been able to load the 480 MB one at all before we added our own PSD renderer because QuickTime wouldn't have been able to handle it.  Samples that do not load are very much welcome.  Please click on my name to the left of this message, then click on the 'personal message' link.  I will respond with upload instructions.

Regards,

-Kirk

Offline rcohn

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Re: 4.6 Beta 2, images that don't view.
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2009, 10:49:25 AM »
Photo Mechanic does now have its own PSD rendering engine.  I spent three days writing it this week.  That's why you're able to see Lab files at all now.  Can you share your Lab w/Alpha image with us?  Please click on my name to the left of this message, then click on the 'personal message' link.  I will respond with upload instructions.
Happy to share!
Quote from: rcohn
In addition, PM is reporting the LAB mode files ICC Profile as AdobeRGB.

[quote author=Kirk Baker link=topic=3854.msg17312#msg17312 date=12345482

That's correct.  Lab is a device independent color space and during the conversion to a display color space we assign Adobe RGB 1998.

[/quote]

Hmm, that kind of defeats the purpose of seeing that a file is in LAB space. If I'm looking at color space info it's really to see what space the original is in. Any way to show this instead. If not, I'd rather see nothing than something that's incorrect and might lead to confusion.

Quote from: rcohn
I'm not sure if Alpha Channels are involved in every case when some 8 Bit RGB files don't preview while other files which are much larger do, but maybe this is the case. For example a psd that's 130MB won't but another that is 480MB will. I duplicated a 130MB file that doesn't view, deleted the Alpha Channels, and this file now views fine in PM. I may just be stating something you are aware of already. Again, maybe this will go away when you write the psd render engine. Good Luck!


It's already written.  You likely wouldn't have been able to load the 480 MB one at all before we added our own PSD renderer because QuickTime wouldn't have been able to handle it.  Samples that do not load are very much welcome.  Please click on my name to the left of this message, then click on the 'personal message' link.  I will respond with upload instructions.

Regards,

-Kirk


Will do.

I also see that CMYK files preview much better. Still not accurately for color, but not so dark as before. Not sure if this can be improved without major work in CMYK rendering that I don't think would be worth it for the vast majority of PM users, however, the new better view does make the Preview more useful. Thanks!

Ric

Offline dennis

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Re: 4.6 Beta 2, images that don't view.
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2009, 01:04:49 PM »
Hmm, that kind of defeats the purpose of seeing that a file is in LAB space. If I'm looking at color space info it's really to see what space the original is in. Any way to show this instead. If not, I'd rather see nothing than something that's incorrect and might lead to confusion.

We convert to RGB to display and the color space we use is AdobeRGB for this purpose.  Same as if you are viewing the photo in Photoshop with AdobeRGB as its working color space.

How about if the {icc} variable says "Lab" instead?

I fixed the problem with Lab images and an alpha channel, and also for CMYK with an alpha.  Are you using more than 1 alpha channel?

--dennis

Offline rcohn

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Re: 4.6 Beta 2, images that don't view.
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2009, 01:35:09 PM »
Hmm, that kind of defeats the purpose of seeing that a file is in LAB space. If I'm looking at color space info it's really to see what space the original is in. Any way to show this instead. If not, I'd rather see nothing than something that's incorrect and might lead to confusion.

We convert to RGB to display and the color space we use is AdobeRGB for this purpose.  Same as if you are viewing the photo in Photoshop with AdobeRGB as its working color space.

How about if the {icc} variable says "Lab" instead?

I fixed the problem with Lab images and an alpha channel, and also for CMYK with an alpha.  Are you using more than 1 alpha channel?

--dennis

Hi Dennis,

Yes, if the {icc} variable said Lab I'd be very happy.

Glad you were able to fix the alpha channel problem. Some images definitely do end up with more than 1 alpha channel. A layered file in my archive can end up with dozens, although 1 to 5 is more common.

Thanks!

Ric

Offline dennis

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Re: 4.6 Beta 2, images that don't view.
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2009, 03:33:30 PM »
Yes, if the {icc} variable said Lab I'd be very happy.

Glad you were able to fix the alpha channel problem. Some images definitely do end up with more than 1 alpha channel. A layered file in my archive can end up with dozens, although 1 to 5 is more common.

{icc} now says "Lab" for CIELab images.  However, the other ICC related variables such as {gamma}, {prrx}, etc will still show values from AdobeRGB when in reality they are are undefined for CIELab, and the white point Photoshop uses for CIELab is D50 but AdobeRGB is D65, so there are still some discrepancies I suppose.

PM will now only look at the channels it needs and ignore any beyond that (e.g. 1 for grayscale, 3 for RGB/Lab, 4 for CMYK).  But layers are not the same as channels here of course.  PM is only looking at the "merged" (or flattened) image data written when Photoshop is set to "maximize compatibility" and is not using the actual layer data, if any (this being proprietary for the most part).

--dennis

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: 4.6 Beta 2, images that don't view.
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2009, 06:29:40 PM »
Ric,

Beta 2 is doing a better job of showing LAB mode files. However, while it appears to handle layered Lab mode psd's OK; as soon as there is an Alpha Channel it can no longer preview. I resaved a psd file (with Alpha Channels) that PM can't preview as a Tiff and it does Preview. Maybe this problem will go away when PM has it's own psd render engine?

In addition, PM is reporting the LAB mode files ICC Profile as AdobeRGB.

I'm not sure if Alpha Channels are involved in every case when some 8 Bit RGB files don't preview while other files which are much larger do, but maybe this is the case. For example a psd that's 130MB won't but another that is 480MB will. I duplicated a 130MB file that doesn't view, deleted the Alpha Channels, and this file now views fine in PM. I may just be stating something you are aware of already. Again, maybe this will go away when you write the psd render engine. Good Luck!

The latest beta version can be obtained from the Announcements section and should solve all of your PSD issues you reported today.

-Kirk

Offline rcohn

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Re: 4.6 Beta 2, images that don't view.
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2009, 01:51:34 PM »
Ric,

Beta 2 is doing a better job of showing LAB mode files. However, while it appears to handle layered Lab mode psd's OK; as soon as there is an Alpha Channel it can no longer preview. I resaved a psd file (with Alpha Channels) that PM can't preview as a Tiff and it does Preview. Maybe this problem will go away when PM has it's own psd render engine?

In addition, PM is reporting the LAB mode files ICC Profile as AdobeRGB.

I'm not sure if Alpha Channels are involved in every case when some 8 Bit RGB files don't preview while other files which are much larger do, but maybe this is the case. For example a psd that's 130MB won't but another that is 480MB will. I duplicated a 130MB file that doesn't view, deleted the Alpha Channels, and this file now views fine in PM. I may just be stating something you are aware of already. Again, maybe this will go away when you write the psd render engine. Good Luck!

The latest beta version can be obtained from the Announcements section and should solve all of your PSD issues you reported today.

-Kirk


Yes, PM can now show all the files that it couldn't before. Good show! It is also now showing when images are in Lab color space.

However, I am encountering a glitch. After Previewing a number of layered psd images the Render Engine seems to max out and I get an "unable to render" window. It requires a fairly large number of images in a folder before this happens. The folder I noticed this on has over 500, although in this folder it happens after only about 35 images. If I continue to scroll through the images more and more images give me the "unable to render" message. Waiting doesn't appear to change anything. However, when I quit and restart PM the images Render fine- until I scroll through a bunch more. (This doesn't appear to ever happen for folders of Raw or Flat Tiff files. For these folders I can get ahead of the render by scrolling quickly through many images, but it just shows a gray window and soon the render catches up.)

I tried increasing the Cache size twice without change. The second time I increased it to what I think is a very large size on an empty Scratch Disk (Spotlight is already turned off for this Disk). I checked the Cache size after PM stopped Rendering and it was only 8.4MB.

I looked at the Log file and it shows errors: mostly "NRF failed to load... with error 7", or "Couldn't allocate full size bitmap". Let me know if you'd like me to send it to you.

Ric

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« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 03:21:02 PM by rcohn »

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: 4.6 Beta 2, images that don't view.
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2009, 07:23:44 PM »
Ric,

Beta 2 is doing a better job of showing LAB mode files. However, while it appears to handle layered Lab mode psd's OK; as soon as there is an Alpha Channel it can no longer preview. I resaved a psd file (with Alpha Channels) that PM can't preview as a Tiff and it does Preview. Maybe this problem will go away when PM has it's own psd render engine?

In addition, PM is reporting the LAB mode files ICC Profile as AdobeRGB.

I'm not sure if Alpha Channels are involved in every case when some 8 Bit RGB files don't preview while other files which are much larger do, but maybe this is the case. For example a psd that's 130MB won't but another that is 480MB will. I duplicated a 130MB file that doesn't view, deleted the Alpha Channels, and this file now views fine in PM. I may just be stating something you are aware of already. Again, maybe this will go away when you write the psd render engine. Good Luck!

The latest beta version can be obtained from the Announcements section and should solve all of your PSD issues you reported today.

-Kirk


Yes, PM can now show all the files that it couldn't before. Good show! It is also now showing when images are in Lab color space.

However, I am encountering a glitch. After Previewing a number of layered psd images the Render Engine seems to max out and I get an "unable to render" window. It requires a fairly large number of images in a folder before this happens. The folder I noticed this on has over 500, although in this folder it happens after only about 35 images. If I continue to scroll through the images more and more images give me the "unable to render" message. Waiting doesn't appear to change anything. However, when I quit and restart PM the images Render fine- until I scroll through a bunch more. (This doesn't appear to ever happen for folders of Raw or Flat Tiff files. For these folders I can get ahead of the render by scrolling quickly through many images, but it just shows a gray window and soon the render catches up.)

I tried increasing the Cache size twice without change. The second time I increased it to what I think is a very large size on an empty Scratch Disk (Spotlight is already turned off for this Disk). I checked the Cache size after PM stopped Rendering and it was only 8.4MB.

I looked at the Log file and it shows errors: mostly "NRF failed to load... with error 7", or "Couldn't allocate full size bitmap". Let me know if you'd like me to send it to you.

It sounds like there may be a memory leak somewhere.  When this happens, launch the Activity Monitor application (Applications/Utilities/) and see how much RAM Photo Mechanic is using up.

I'll look into it.

[EDIT:] Never mind.  There was a memory leak.  I've fixed it.  We'll get a new build out tomorrow.

-Kirk
« Last Edit: February 15, 2009, 07:29:35 PM by Kirk Baker »

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: 4.6 Beta 2, images that don't view.
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2009, 06:45:31 PM »
Ric,

Beta 2 is doing a better job of showing LAB mode files. However, while it appears to handle layered Lab mode psd's OK; as soon as there is an Alpha Channel it can no longer preview. I resaved a psd file (with Alpha Channels) that PM can't preview as a Tiff and it does Preview. Maybe this problem will go away when PM has it's own psd render engine?

In addition, PM is reporting the LAB mode files ICC Profile as AdobeRGB.

I'm not sure if Alpha Channels are involved in every case when some 8 Bit RGB files don't preview while other files which are much larger do, but maybe this is the case. For example a psd that's 130MB won't but another that is 480MB will. I duplicated a 130MB file that doesn't view, deleted the Alpha Channels, and this file now views fine in PM. I may just be stating something you are aware of already. Again, maybe this will go away when you write the psd render engine. Good Luck!

The latest beta version can be obtained from the Announcements section and should solve all of your PSD issues you reported today.

-Kirk


Yes, PM can now show all the files that it couldn't before. Good show! It is also now showing when images are in Lab color space.

However, I am encountering a glitch. After Previewing a number of layered psd images the Render Engine seems to max out and I get an "unable to render" window. It requires a fairly large number of images in a folder before this happens. The folder I noticed this on has over 500, although in this folder it happens after only about 35 images. If I continue to scroll through the images more and more images give me the "unable to render" message. Waiting doesn't appear to change anything. However, when I quit and restart PM the images Render fine- until I scroll through a bunch more. (This doesn't appear to ever happen for folders of Raw or Flat Tiff files. For these folders I can get ahead of the render by scrolling quickly through many images, but it just shows a gray window and soon the render catches up.)

The updated version that solves the memory leaks you were experiencing is now available on the Announcements section of the forums.

-Kirk

Offline rcohn

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Re: 4.6 Beta 2, images that don't view.
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2009, 07:37:57 AM »

The updated version that solves the memory leaks you were experiencing is now available on the Announcements section of the forums.

-Kirk


Yes indeed it does fix the problem! PM can take anything I throw at it again, all while showing all the images it used to not be able to view. Thanks!

BTW, after viewing a huge number of layered psd images my cache grew to 99 MB, is this more than the default setting?

Ric

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Re: 4.6 Beta 2, images that don't view.
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2009, 08:08:29 AM »
Ric,


The updated version that solves the memory leaks you were experiencing is now available on the Announcements section of the forums.

-Kirk


Yes indeed it does fix the problem! PM can take anything I throw at it again, all while showing all the images it used to not be able to view. Thanks!

BTW, after viewing a huge number of layered psd images my cache grew to 99 MB, is this more than the default setting?

Is this the Disk Cache you're referring to?  What do you have your Disk Cache size set at?

-Kirk

Offline rcohn

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Re: 4.6 Beta 2, images that don't view.
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2009, 08:53:04 AM »

BTW, after viewing a huge number of layered psd images my cache grew to 99 MB, is this more than the default setting?

Is this the Disk Cache you're referring to?  What do you have your Disk Cache size set at?

-Kirk

[/quote]

Yes, the Disk Cache. After viewing a bunch more files it was up to 165 MB (Command-I on the cache folder). I never looked at this before I had the problem with the memory leak, and it's not really an issue. This is more for my own understanding of the correct settings. In the past I've always increased from the default slightly, although I'm not sure it is necessary.

Currently, I still have the Disk Cache set to the screen shot in my earlier post where I increased it greatly to try and trouble shoot what turned out to be the memory leak problem: Disk cache 5000MB, Memory cache 1024 MB. Since I have PM set to delete the Cache on closing, does it make sense to set the Disk Cache to be somewhat larger than, but not hugely greater than, the size it's likely to ever grow to between starts?

Since there's no reset for default Cache sizes, I'm not sure what the default install of PM sets.

Ric

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Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: 4.6 Beta 2, images that don't view.
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2009, 09:57:32 AM »
Ric,


BTW, after viewing a huge number of layered psd images my cache grew to 99 MB, is this more than the default setting?

Is this the Disk Cache you're referring to?  What do you have your Disk Cache size set at?

Yes, the Disk Cache. After viewing a bunch more files it was up to 165 MB (Command-I on the cache folder). I never looked at this before I had the problem with the memory leak, and it's not really an issue. This is more for my own understanding of the correct settings. In the past I've always increased from the default slightly, although I'm not sure it is necessary.

Currently, I still have the Disk Cache set to the screen shot in my earlier post where I increased it greatly to try and trouble shoot what turned out to be the memory leak problem: Disk cache 5000MB, Memory cache 1024 MB. Since I have PM set to delete the Cache on closing, does it make sense to set the Disk Cache to be somewhat larger than, but not hugely greater than, the size it's likely to ever grow to between starts?

Since there's no reset for default Cache sizes, I'm not sure what the default install of PM sets.

The default is 512 MB.  Since yours is now 5000 MB, 165 MB is nowhere close to exceeding that limit.  Your cache suggestion/question is right on the money.

-Kirk