Author Topic: Coordinating PM, NX2, LR  (Read 7326 times)

Offline theim

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
    • View Profile
Coordinating PM, NX2, LR
« on: August 17, 2009, 12:02:02 PM »

If I place the following constraints on my workflow...

1.  Use PM exclusively for writing metadata to RAW files (NEFs).
2.  Write only to the IPTC fields (avoiding the fields marked with an asterisk in the IPTC Stationery Pad).
3.  Use NX2 for image adjustments, only (curves, saturation, white balance, etc.).
4.  Never use NX2, Lightroom, or Bridge/Photoshop to write metadata (only read it).

...will I then be able to successfully use Lightroom for its 'read-only' cataloging capabilities?
I would like to create keyword hierarchies in LR, then import images keyworded in PM to the LR library, then use LR to organize my photos.

I do not plan to utilize xmp sidecar files for anything (would prefer to avoid the clutter and the effort of keeping them in the same folders as the corresponding RAW files).
Also, NX2 does not use/recognize xmp sidecar files.

Of course, as soon as PM introduces cataloging features, I'll be very interested in using PM for both keywording and cataloging.

Thanks,
-Tom


Offline theim

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
    • View Profile
Re: Coordinating PM, NX2, LR
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2009, 12:07:40 PM »
Forgot to clarify...

Windows:
PM 4.6.1, LR v2.4, Photoshop 7, Windows XP Professional (Svc Pack 3).

Mac:
PM 4.6.1, LR v2.4, CS4, Mac OS X 10.5.8

Offline MontyM

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • Posts: 30
    • View Profile
Re: Coordinating PM, NX2, LR
« Reply #2 on: August 17, 2009, 12:36:53 PM »
I am doing about the same thing you are.  I previously used LR for everything, but now I am using PM, NX2 and a bit of LR. I re-entered my LR keyword list for PM.  I use LR for searching for pictures and categorizing.  I really like how LR can create virtual folders. When in NX2 I do modifications to pictures save and save a copy as a jpg (so LR can see the modifications)  When In LR I stack the pictures by captures time.

I hope at some point PM can compare the LR's for sorting, grouping and finding photos.

Monty

Offline theim

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
    • View Profile
Re: Coordinating PM, NX2, LR
« Reply #3 on: August 17, 2009, 01:00:37 PM »
When in NX2 I do modifications to pictures save and save a copy as a jpg (so LR can see the modifications).

Monty

Hi Monty - Thanks for the response.  It's good to hear from someone with a similar workflow.

I'm curious about your saving a copy of the NEF as a jpg 'so LR can see the modifications'.
Currently I perform image adjustments in NX2, then resave the NEF (as an NEF).
When I do this, PM is able to display the embedded jpg in its modified state.  Can't LR do the same?

Thanks,
-Tom

Offline Kirk Baker

  • Senior Software Engineer
  • Camera Bits Staff
  • Superhero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21340
    • View Profile
    • Camera Bits, Inc.
Re: Coordinating PM, NX2, LR
« Reply #4 on: August 17, 2009, 01:54:44 PM »
Tom,


If I place the following constraints on my workflow...

1.  Use PM exclusively for writing metadata to RAW files (NEFs).
2.  Write only to the IPTC fields (avoiding the fields marked with an asterisk in the IPTC Stationery Pad).
3.  Use NX2 for image adjustments, only (curves, saturation, white balance, etc.).
4.  Never use NX2, Lightroom, or Bridge/Photoshop to write metadata (only read it).

...will I then be able to successfully use Lightroom for its 'read-only' cataloging capabilities?
I would like to create keyword hierarchies in LR, then import images keyworded in PM to the LR library, then use LR to organize my photos.

I do not plan to utilize xmp sidecar files for anything (would prefer to avoid the clutter and the effort of keeping them in the same folders as the corresponding RAW files).
Also, NX2 does not use/recognize xmp sidecar files.

Of course, as soon as PM introduces cataloging features, I'll be very interested in using PM for both keywording and cataloging.

You're going to have difficulties getting all three applications to completely work together, though since you do not plan to update metadata with Lightroom you might be OK depending on your specific needs.  Capture NX2 only writes XMP inside NEF files and ignores XMP sidecar files.  Lightroom never writes XMP data into RAW files, though it will read embedded XMP out of them.  So I recommend that you configure PM to write IPTC4XMP into TIFF-based RAW files (NEF is a TIFF-based RAW file) and that way your interaction between PM and NX2 will be great, and LR will see the metadata as well.  The only unfortunate thing is that LR cannot be configured (to my knowledge) to use the embedded JPEGs in your NX2-adjusted NEF files like PM can.  This means that your photos will appear differently when viewed in LR.  If that's OK for you then you're good to go.

HTH,

-Kirk

Offline theim

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
    • View Profile
Re: Coordinating PM, NX2, LR
« Reply #5 on: August 17, 2009, 02:27:30 PM »
So I recommend that you configure PM to write IPTC4XMP into TIFF-based RAW files (NEF is a TIFF-based RAW file) and that way your interaction between PM and NX2 will be great, and LR will see the metadata as well.

Hi Kirk,  Thanks for your response.  I'm having difficulty reconciling your advice (above) with your advice in another thread (back in Mar09):

'Never embed IPTC4XMP on RAW files if you're using Adobe's products.  Each of Adobe's imaging products (Photoshop, Bridge, and Photoshop Lightroom) have a bug where they prefer embedded XMP over sidecar XMP though they refuse to update IPTC4XMP inside RAW files.  This causes their software to get out of sync with their own settings.  The solution is to uncheck the "Embed IPTC4XMP" checkbox.  Embedding IPTC is OK, but is unnecessary.  Also, you should change the read order of the data to: (1) Sidecar XMP (2) Embedded IPTC (3) Embedded XMP'.

Should I check the box 'Add embedded IPTC4XMP' or not?  If I plan to use only the IPTC fields in the IPTC Stationery Pad (and not the fields with an asterisk), can't I just get along with using 'Add embedded IPTC' box checked?

Thanks,
-Tom

Offline Kirk Baker

  • Senior Software Engineer
  • Camera Bits Staff
  • Superhero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21340
    • View Profile
    • Camera Bits, Inc.
Re: Coordinating PM, NX2, LR
« Reply #6 on: August 17, 2009, 03:07:33 PM »
Tom,

So I recommend that you configure PM to write IPTC4XMP into TIFF-based RAW files (NEF is a TIFF-based RAW file) and that way your interaction between PM and NX2 will be great, and LR will see the metadata as well.

Hi Kirk,  Thanks for your response.  I'm having difficulty reconciling your advice (above) with your advice in another thread (back in Mar09):

'Never embed IPTC4XMP on RAW files if you're using Adobe's products.  Each of Adobe's imaging products (Photoshop, Bridge, and Photoshop Lightroom) have a bug where they prefer embedded XMP over sidecar XMP though they refuse to update IPTC4XMP inside RAW files.  This causes their software to get out of sync with their own settings.  The solution is to uncheck the "Embed IPTC4XMP" checkbox.  Embedding IPTC is OK, but is unnecessary.  Also, you should change the read order of the data to: (1) Sidecar XMP (2) Embedded IPTC (3) Embedded XMP'.

Should I check the box 'Add embedded IPTC4XMP' or not?  If I plan to use only the IPTC fields in the IPTC Stationery Pad (and not the fields with an asterisk), can't I just get along with using 'Add embedded IPTC' box checked?

The complication is that you're using Capture NX2 which will always embed XMP into your NEF files, no matter what your settings are in PM.  So since you're not planning to render with Lightroom, it doesn't matter if the XMP is embedded.  It's going to be there whether you want it to be or not.  NX2 is going to do that.  Since you cannot control what NX2 does, you might as well make PM and NX2 work together as well as possible, and let LR deal with the situation.  LR is still going to see your metadata so the cataloging aspect should work fine which is what you wanted LR for.

HTH,

-Kirk

Offline MontyM

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • Posts: 30
    • View Profile
Re: Coordinating PM, NX2, LR
« Reply #7 on: August 18, 2009, 06:01:03 AM »
Tom,
I have not been able to get LR to "see" changes made to NEF by NX2.  If you can figure out how to do this PLEASE let me know
Thanks
Monty


[/quote]

Hi Monty - Thanks for the response.  It's good to hear from someone with a similar workflow.

I'm curious about your saving a copy of the NEF as a jpg 'so LR can see the modifications'.
Currently I perform image adjustments in NX2, then resave the NEF (as an NEF).
When I do this, PM is able to display the embedded jpg in its modified state.  Can't LR do the same?

Thanks,
-Tom

[/quote]

Offline theim

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
    • View Profile
Re: Coordinating PM, NX2, LR
« Reply #8 on: August 18, 2009, 06:48:23 AM »
The complication is that you're using Capture NX2 which will always embed XMP into your NEF files, no matter what your settings are in PM.
-Kirk


Since I'm not using Nikon Capture NX2 for any captioning, keywording, etc. (only image adjustments), doesn't that mean that (in my case) NX2 will not embed XMP into my NEF files?
It might be that I am misunderstanding the term 'XMP'.  I thought 'XMP' were the metadata fields designated with an asterisk when viewed in PM's IPTC Stationery Pad.

Thanks,
-Tom

Offline Kirk Baker

  • Senior Software Engineer
  • Camera Bits Staff
  • Superhero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21340
    • View Profile
    • Camera Bits, Inc.
Re: Coordinating PM, NX2, LR
« Reply #9 on: August 18, 2009, 06:51:52 AM »
Tom,

The complication is that you're using Capture NX2 which will always embed XMP into your NEF files, no matter what your settings are in PM.

Since I'm not using Nikon Capture NX2 for any captioning, keywording, etc. (only image adjustments), doesn't that mean that (in my case) NX2 will not embed XMP into my NEF files?
It might be that I am misunderstanding the term 'XMP'.  I thought 'XMP' were the metadata fields designated with an asterisk when viewed in PM's IPTC Stationery Pad.

XMP is just a data format.  Any IPTC field can be represented in XMP.  Custom fields that never existed in IPTC can also be represented in XMP.

Since NX2 will be writing to the file, I'm sure it will also add XMP when it does so.  That has been my experience so far.  You could conduct your own tests just to be sure.

-Kirk

Offline theim

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
    • View Profile
Re: Coordinating PM, NX2, LR
« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2009, 07:01:14 AM »
The only unfortunate thing is that LR cannot be configured (to my knowledge) to use the embedded JPEGs in your NX2-adjusted NEF files like PM can.  This means that your photos will appear differently when viewed in LR.

-Kirk


Well, for my purposes at least, that certainly lets some air out of the LR tires!

Since I do all my culling/renaming/keywording in PM and virtually all image editing is done in NX2 and Photoshop, $300 for LR is starting to sound mighty expensive for just cataloging.
More than ever, I'm looking forward to seeing what PM will be offering for cataloging!

Thanks Kirk.

-Tom

Offline theim

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 67
    • View Profile
Re: Coordinating PM, NX2, LR
« Reply #11 on: August 18, 2009, 07:09:23 AM »
Tom,
I have not been able to get LR to "see" changes made to NEF by NX2.  If you can figure out how to do this PLEASE let me know
Thanks
Monty


Hi Monty,

I have downloaded a trial version of LR 2.4 but have not yet launched the trial period, as I'm trying to gather enough information beforehand to maximize what I get out of the 30 days.
You must have seen Kirk's comment on LR not being able to see the RAW edits to NEFs made in NX2, so I'm not optimistic.  But if I stumble across a solution, I'll be sure to post it here.

Thanks again,
-Tom

Offline Kirk Baker

  • Senior Software Engineer
  • Camera Bits Staff
  • Superhero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21340
    • View Profile
    • Camera Bits, Inc.
Re: Coordinating PM, NX2, LR
« Reply #12 on: August 18, 2009, 07:30:45 AM »
Tom,

The only unfortunate thing is that LR cannot be configured (to my knowledge) to use the embedded JPEGs in your NX2-adjusted NEF files like PM can.  This means that your photos will appear differently when viewed in LR.

Well, for my purposes at least, that certainly lets some air out of the LR tires!

Since I do all my culling/renaming/keywording in PM and virtually all image editing is done in NX2 and Photoshop, $300 for LR is starting to sound mighty expensive for just cataloging.
More than ever, I'm looking forward to seeing what PM will be offering for cataloging!

Cataloging is our #1 priority right now.

-Kirk

Offline MontyM

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • Posts: 30
    • View Profile
Re: Coordinating PM, NX2, LR
« Reply #13 on: August 19, 2009, 05:54:00 AM »
Kirk,

Any thought when a release date (or beta) with cataloging might be available?

Tmanks,
Monty


Tom,

The only unfortunate thing is that LR cannot be configured (to my knowledge) to use the embedded JPEGs in your NX2-adjusted NEF files like PM can.  This means that your photos will appear differently when viewed in LR.

Well, for my purposes at least, that certainly lets some air out of the LR tires!

Since I do all my culling/renaming/keywording in PM and virtually all image editing is done in NX2 and Photoshop, $300 for LR is starting to sound mighty expensive for just cataloging.
More than ever, I'm looking forward to seeing what PM will be offering for cataloging!

Cataloging is our #1 priority right now.

-Kirk


Offline Kirk Baker

  • Senior Software Engineer
  • Camera Bits Staff
  • Superhero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21340
    • View Profile
    • Camera Bits, Inc.
Re: Coordinating PM, NX2, LR
« Reply #14 on: August 19, 2009, 07:26:49 AM »
Any thought when a release date (or beta) with cataloging might be available?

No release date is known yet.  We'll have something to announce in the middle of the 4th quarter of this year.

-Kirk