Author Topic: Color Class Widget filtering in Preview Window?  (Read 4699 times)

Offline ramblinwreck

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 56
    • View Profile
Color Class Widget filtering in Preview Window?
« on: December 30, 2009, 06:49:23 AM »
Hi,

I'm running PM 4.6.2.1 on OSX 10.6.2.

I recently converted from an Aperture based workflow to one based on PM. There is one feature of Aperture that I really miss when culling / making my image selections, and I've not been able to find an equivalent function in PM. I'll try to describe what I'd like to do and perhaps you can tell me whether or not this is possible (or whether there is a better alternative - I'm open to suggestions).

I think it will be simplest to describe what I'm looking for with a simple example.

Current behavior:
1. I have 3 images in a contact sheet (let's call them image A,B,C).
2. Color Class Widget is set to NOT show Color Class 8 "Trash".
3. Enter the Preview Window.
4. View image A. It is a keeper. Advance to next image ([->]).
5. View image B. It is a non-keeper. Mark as Trash ([8]). Advance to next image ([->]).
6. View image C. It is a keeper.
7. Return to previous image ([<-]). Image B is shown, with Color Class == Trash.

Desired behavior:
1-6. Same as above.
7.   Return to previous image ([<-]). Image A is shown. Image B is NOT shown
     since previously marked with Color Class 8 "Trash".

Is it possible to make PM do this (or similar)?

Basically, I think the main thing I'm looking for is for the Color Class Widget to do "live" filtering the current set of images that the Preview Window can go through. Currently, it seems the Color Class Widget has a live filtering effect only on the Contact Sheet View. I suppose this is expected PM behavior.

Aperture supports the above 'desired behavior' scenario with the concept of "Rejects". Basically, in Aperture's equivalent of the PM Preview Window, once I mark an image as Reject, it "disappears" from the current viewing set. Basically, this is a simple filtering out of the reject criteria, and it works on Aperture's equivalent of both the Contact Sheet and Preview Window, not just the Contact Sheet.

I find this incredibly useful for narrowing down my image selections. It means that once I've marked an image as Trash/Reject, it disappears, with immediate effect, from all views (as soon as I navigate off that image). I will not see this image again unless I explicitly reset the filter criteria to show them. For large sets of images, it can take me several iterations through my images to get down to a final set of keepers, and the behavior described above helps me do this more quickly (because I'm not having to look again at images that I've already marked as Reject/Trash). It means that I can quickly get down to a set of keepers using only the [->], [<-], and [Reject/Trash shortcut] keys.

With PM, currently, after marking my non-keepers as Trash / Color Class 8 in the Preview Window, the only way I've found to remove them from the current viewing set is to go back to the Contact sheet (where Trash images will then disappear), and then re-enter the Preview Window. This seems undesirable to me, particularly when using the 2-Up feature. With 2-Up, I'll have one image "competing" with several others, and as I mark all the losers with Color Class 8, I'd like to have them disappear from the competition, so to speak.

Maybe I'm missing something fundamental here. Is there a way to make PM do this? Or do you have a "best practice" example workflow that is more efficient that what I've described above?

Thanks
Chris

Offline Kirk Baker

  • Senior Software Engineer
  • Camera Bits Staff
  • Superhero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24172
    • View Profile
    • Camera Bits, Inc.
Re: Color Class Widget filtering in Preview Window?
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2009, 07:38:27 AM »
Chris,

I'm running PM 4.6.2.1 on OSX 10.6.2.

I recently converted from an Aperture based workflow to one based on PM. There is one feature of Aperture that I really miss when culling / making my image selections, and I've not been able to find an equivalent function in PM. I'll try to describe what I'd like to do and perhaps you can tell me whether or not this is possible (or whether there is a better alternative - I'm open to suggestions).

I think it will be simplest to describe what I'm looking for with a simple example.

Current behavior:
1. I have 3 images in a contact sheet (let's call them image A,B,C).
2. Color Class Widget is set to NOT show Color Class 8 "Trash".
3. Enter the Preview Window.
4. View image A. It is a keeper. Advance to next image ([->]).
5. View image B. It is a non-keeper. Mark as Trash ([8]). Advance to next image ([->]).
6. View image C. It is a keeper.
7. Return to previous image ([<-]). Image B is shown, with Color Class == Trash.

Desired behavior:
1-6. Same as above.
7.   Return to previous image ([<-]). Image A is shown. Image B is NOT shown
     since previously marked with Color Class 8 "Trash".

Is it possible to make PM do this (or similar)?

Basically, I think the main thing I'm looking for is for the Color Class Widget to do "live" filtering the current set of images that the Preview Window can go through. Currently, it seems the Color Class Widget has a live filtering effect only on the Contact Sheet View. I suppose this is expected PM behavior.

Aperture supports the above 'desired behavior' scenario with the concept of "Rejects". Basically, in Aperture's equivalent of the PM Preview Window, once I mark an image as Reject, it "disappears" from the current viewing set. Basically, this is a simple filtering out of the reject criteria, and it works on Aperture's equivalent of both the Contact Sheet and Preview Window, not just the Contact Sheet.

I find this incredibly useful for narrowing down my image selections. It means that once I've marked an image as Trash/Reject, it disappears, with immediate effect, from all views (as soon as I navigate off that image). I will not see this image again unless I explicitly reset the filter criteria to show them. For large sets of images, it can take me several iterations through my images to get down to a final set of keepers, and the behavior described above helps me do this more quickly (because I'm not having to look again at images that I've already marked as Reject/Trash). It means that I can quickly get down to a set of keepers using only the [->], [<-], and [Reject/Trash shortcut] keys.

With PM, currently, after marking my non-keepers as Trash / Color Class 8 in the Preview Window, the only way I've found to remove them from the current viewing set is to go back to the Contact sheet (where Trash images will then disappear), and then re-enter the Preview Window. This seems undesirable to me, particularly when using the 2-Up feature. With 2-Up, I'll have one image "competing" with several others, and as I mark all the losers with Color Class 8, I'd like to have them disappear from the competition, so to speak.

Maybe I'm missing something fundamental here. Is there a way to make PM do this? Or do you have a "best practice" example workflow that is more efficient that what I've described above?

The way you accomplish this in the Preview window is to select your images that you want to work with in the Contact Sheet, then click the Preview icon (magnifying glass) on the image you wish to start with.  Then while previewing, type the 'D' key on images you wish to dismiss from your selection.  They should disappear from the thumbnail strip below and the next image in the selection should enter the preview.  Keep using the 'D' key (there is an icon in the toolbar that looks like a thumbs-down but the keyboard shortcut is more convenient) until you get through all of your selected images.  You could also apply your 'Trash' color class to them as well if you like before you press the 'D' key.

I also suggest using the 'Greg Gorman key: G' when in the 2-up modes as it is useful for picking a new favorite to compare against.  Please read the manual on page 33.  It explains things pretty well.

HTH,

-Kirk

Offline ramblinwreck

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 56
    • View Profile
Re: Color Class Widget filtering in Preview Window?
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2009, 08:52:56 AM »
Kirk,

Thanks for the reply.

Quote
The way you accomplish this in the Preview window is to select your images that you want to work with in the Contact Sheet, then click the Preview icon (magnifying glass) on the image you wish to start with.  Then while previewing, type the 'D' key on images you wish to dismiss from your selection.  They should disappear from the thumbnail strip below and the next image in the selection should enter the preview.  Keep using the 'D' key (there is an icon in the toolbar that looks like a thumbs-down but the keyboard shortcut is more convenient) until you get through all of your selected images.  You could also apply your 'Trash' color class to them as well if you like before you press the 'D' key.

OK, if I understand you correctly then can I do something like this(?):

1. Select ALL images in a Contact Sheet (for initial culling, I will usually want to work with all images in the Contact sheet, not a subset)
2. Enter Preview mode.
3. Go through images, effectively using 'D' (dismiss) as a way of removing non-keepers from the current selection.
4. When done, return to Contact Sheet. Only images that have not been dismissed remain selected. Dismissed images no longer selected.
5. Use [Select Others] to invert the selection. Dismissed images are now selected.
6. Apply 'Trash' color class (or delete) the selected images.

Does that sound OK?

I think I still might like the Aperture behavior better (for this one little thing!), but I will try the PM way and learn to use it.  ;D

It just seems I can do this one specific task with fewer clicks/keystrokes in Aperture than in PM. Specifically, it seems that Aperture's 'Reject' function performs the same job as PM 'Dismiss' function and Color Class Filtering put together. And all in just one "view", not having to switch (for example) between the Preview Window and Contact Sheet to mark my previous dismissals as Trash (or not having to apply a Trash Color Class in Preview before using Dismiss as you suggest above - that's 2 keystrokes per image instead of 1, slower and more prone to human error like dismissing without Trash'ing or vice-versa).

I'm curious, is what I've described an "unusual" flow for making selections? Is there a "better" way? Being a former Aperture user and new to PM I just tried to do what I used to do in Aperture within PM, and I realize that's probably not the best way to approach things. I realize this is subjective, but through collective wisdom of your experienced user base is there a best-practice established for this? I'd be particularly interested to hear from any former Aperture users.

Kirk - I really appreciate the support. This is just splitting hairs for me at this point. I was demo'ing PM in the days before Christmas and just purchased a full fledged copy a few days ago. Your support definitely influenced my decision to purchase.

Best regards,
Chris

Offline Kirk Baker

  • Senior Software Engineer
  • Camera Bits Staff
  • Superhero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24172
    • View Profile
    • Camera Bits, Inc.
Re: Color Class Widget filtering in Preview Window?
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2009, 09:13:11 AM »
Chris,

Quote
The way you accomplish this in the Preview window is to select your images that you want to work with in the Contact Sheet, then click the Preview icon (magnifying glass) on the image you wish to start with.  Then while previewing, type the 'D' key on images you wish to dismiss from your selection.  They should disappear from the thumbnail strip below and the next image in the selection should enter the preview.  Keep using the 'D' key (there is an icon in the toolbar that looks like a thumbs-down but the keyboard shortcut is more convenient) until you get through all of your selected images.  You could also apply your 'Trash' color class to them as well if you like before you press the 'D' key.

OK, if I understand you correctly then can I do something like this(?):

1. Select ALL images in a Contact Sheet (for initial culling, I will usually want to work with all images in the Contact sheet, not a subset)
2. Enter Preview mode.
3. Go through images, effectively using 'D' (dismiss) as a way of removing non-keepers from the current selection.
4. When done, return to Contact Sheet. Only images that have not been dismissed remain selected. Dismissed images no longer selected.
5. Use [Select Others] to invert the selection. Dismissed images are now selected.
6. Apply 'Trash' color class (or delete) the selected images.

Does that sound OK?

That sounds fine.

Quote from: ramblinwreck
I think I still might like the Aperture behavior better (for this one little thing!), but I will try the PM way and learn to use it.  ;D

It just seems I can do this one specific task with fewer clicks/keystrokes in Aperture than in PM. Specifically, it seems that Aperture's 'Reject' function performs the same job as PM 'Dismiss' function and Color Class Filtering put together. And all in just one "view", not having to switch (for example) between the Preview Window and Contact Sheet to mark my previous dismissals as Trash (or not having to apply a Trash Color Class in Preview before using Dismiss as you suggest above - that's 2 keystrokes per image instead of 1, slower and more prone to human error like dismissing without Trash'ing or vice-versa).

I'm curious, is what I've described an "unusual" flow for making selections? Is there a "better" way? Being a former Aperture user and new to PM I just tried to do what I used to do in Aperture within PM, and I realize that's probably not the best way to approach things. I realize this is subjective, but through collective wisdom of your experienced user base is there a best-practice established for this? I'd be particularly interested to hear from any former Aperture users.

Or any users that have a better way of culling their images, please reply.

Quote from: ramblinwreck
Kirk - I really appreciate the support. This is just splitting hairs for me at this point. I was demo'ing PM in the days before Christmas and just purchased a full fledged copy a few days ago. Your support definitely influenced my decision to purchase.

That's great.  We appreciate your purchase.

-Kirk

Offline TiggerGTO

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 95
    • View Profile
Re: Color Class Widget filtering in Preview Window?
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2009, 03:59:16 PM »
Kirk, would it be worthwhile to add an option to assign a color class to the D key so that the image can be dismissed and have a color class assigned with one keystroke?

Danny

Offline ramblinwreck

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 56
    • View Profile
Re: Color Class Widget filtering in Preview Window?
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2009, 05:26:18 PM »
I for one would welcome the option Danny has suggested!  :)

Offline Kirk Baker

  • Senior Software Engineer
  • Camera Bits Staff
  • Superhero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24172
    • View Profile
    • Camera Bits, Inc.
Re: Color Class Widget filtering in Preview Window?
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2009, 06:01:57 PM »
Kirk, would it be worthwhile to add an option to assign a color class to the D key so that the image can be dismissed and have a color class assigned with one keystroke?

I think it would be better to have the Color Class filtering have an option to be realtime instead of happening when refreshed.  Then just changing the color class would have the desired effect.  Tagging or rating could have similar effect.

-Kirk

Offline Kevin M. Cox

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 460
  • PM 6 (6496) | macOS 12.5
    • View Profile
    • Kevin M. Cox | Photojournalist
Re: Color Class Widget filtering in Preview Window?
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2009, 09:31:36 PM »
I like the fact that Color Class and Tagged filtering is not "live" in preview mode. There are times I mark the wrong photo and have to go back to fix it when browsing on deadline. If it was "live" filtering I'd have to drop back down to Contact Sheet view to fix the tag.

Chris, my editing is based on working under a deadline and not any long term ranking strategy. Instead of marking images as "trash" on my first edit I instead only mark the images that are possibles for being transmitted. For this I use the "Tag" feature instead of the colors. From a typical game I'll tag 20 or so images, but this doesn't mean the ones without tags are trash so using the "Select Others" strategy wouldn't work for me.

I'll browse the whole assignment and tag images I like. Then in the contact sheet I'll switch to F3 mode (view only tagged) and then go through the selects in the preview window again. I'll narrow down the selects by un-tagging them with the T key and dismiss them with the D key. This drops them from both Preview and Contact Sheet views.  I know it is an extra key but I can hit them both pretty quick with the same hand and it doesn't slow me down when I'm on a roll.

Hopefully that is somewhat useful.
Kevin M. Cox | Photojournalist
https://www.KevinCox.com

Offline Hayo Baan

  • Uber Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2550
  • Professional Photographer & Software Developer
    • View Profile
    • Hayo Baan - Photography
Re: Color Class Widget filtering in Preview Window?
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2009, 03:36:50 AM »
I think it would be better to have the Color Class filtering have an option to be realtime instead of happening when refreshed.  Then just changing the color class would have the desired effect.  Tagging or rating could have similar effect.

Having the filtering "live" would be great for me!

My culling workflow is to go through all images (usually in preview)
1) I "tag" the ones that I really don't want to keep (these will be deleted later)
2) Real keepers are colour coded
3) Optional keepers are colour coded with a different colour
This process is repeated until all files have a colour code or are tagged. For me it would be especially helpful if the tagged ones would disappear from view immediately. Currently I have to manually refresh the view to get rid of them (eg. by pressing f4 on the contact sheet, or by quitting and restarting preview).

So, yes, live filtering for both the contact sheet and the preview would be a great addition to me.
Oh, and as Kevin points out, live filtering should be an option.
Hayo Baan - Photography
Web: www.hayobaan.nl

Offline ramblinwreck

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 56
    • View Profile
Re: Color Class Widget filtering in Preview Window?
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2009, 06:42:20 AM »
Kevin and Hayo - thank you for taking the time to describe your workflows.

What I do is similar to what Hayo has described. That is:

First line of culling is achieved using some particular metadata marking. Hayo uses Tag. I use Color Class 8. Someone else might use a certain Rating. Once non-keepers have been culled, status of the keepers is later refined. Sounds like Hayo uses Color Class for this. I use Ratings. To each his own.

For any flow that has an initial culling stage that relies on "marking the non-keepers", I have to think live filtering of the Preview Window based on Tag/Rating/Color would be a real time saver. In this type of flow, it takes any non-keepers out-of-view, with immediate effect so the users effort is focused only on remaining not-yet-culled images. It avoids the need to switch/refresh views (to update filtering), or to double-key images to get the desired effect.

Seems to me live filtering would be particularly useful when using 2-Up mode. Specifically, I think (?) it could be used in concert with the Greg Gorman function, not in lieu of it.

I can appreciate Kevin's (and surely, others) workflow and I acknowledge that this option, should it ever be implemented, would not necessarily be useful for them.