Author Topic: PM ... and 21th Century Windows OS folder structure :)  (Read 5104 times)

Offline ali

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PM ... and 21th Century Windows OS folder structure :)
« on: September 19, 2010, 07:57:10 AM »
Hello.

I've ocasionally used PM along these last years. There's ONE thing that has bothered me since I started using Vista ... and that now, with Windows 7, is almost maddening.

I'm talking about the Navigator, and the folder structure it shows. Is like going back to windows 98. Why have the designers decided to ignore "recent" changes in visual representation of the folder structure . "Recent" meaning "changes that happened 4 years ago".

Navigating the folders with PM is totally different than when you use Windows Explorer... where are the User Folders ? Public Folders ? Buried under Computer\C:\Users\SomeName\... And what about the "recent" Windows Libraries ? Home Group ?

I suppose there's a reason for remaining in the 20th century ... and I would like to know what it is ... but also I would like to state my oppinion. Whatever the reason, is not worth the "jet-lag" you suffer whan changing from any other current program to PM. I am used to Vista, I am used to Windows 7 ... navigating the folders in PM is a PITA.

And worst ... even if I were to use favorites to sidestep the problem ... PM totally ignores the folders' localized names ... so "Pictures" and "Public Pictures" appear both as "Pictures" ... totally intuitive.

So ... could someone please clarify wich are the reasons for using this utterly outdated style ... and the reasons for not changing to the current style ?

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: PM ... and 21th Century Windows OS folder structure :)
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2010, 06:03:43 PM »
Hello.

I've ocasionally used PM along these last years. There's ONE thing that has bothered me since I started using Vista ... and that now, with Windows 7, is almost maddening.

I'm talking about the Navigator, and the folder structure it shows. Is like going back to windows 98. Why have the designers decided to ignore "recent" changes in visual representation of the folder structure . "Recent" meaning "changes that happened 4 years ago".

Navigating the folders with PM is totally different than when you use Windows Explorer... where are the User Folders ? Public Folders ? Buried under Computer\C:\Users\SomeName\... And what about the "recent" Windows Libraries ? Home Group ?

I suppose there's a reason for remaining in the 20th century ... and I would like to know what it is ... but also I would like to state my oppinion. Whatever the reason, is not worth the "jet-lag" you suffer whan changing from any other current program to PM. I am used to Vista, I am used to Windows 7 ... navigating the folders in PM is a PITA.

And worst ... even if I were to use favorites to sidestep the problem ... PM totally ignores the folders' localized names ... so "Pictures" and "Public Pictures" appear both as "Pictures" ... totally intuitive.

So ... could someone please clarify wich are the reasons for using this utterly outdated style ... and the reasons for not changing to the current style ?

Because Microsoft does not provide a 'Navigator' control for third party applications and basically every programmer has to duplicate this effort.  Why haven't we updated the Navigator to have a more modern layout?  It just hasn't been a priority for us or our customers.  Believe it or not, but you're the first person to mention the issue.

BTW, there are several ways to open folders in Photo Mechanic and that includes drag and drop, right clicking on a folder from within Windows Explorer (and choosing to open it with PM from the contextual menu), and the Open command on the file menu.  Also you can take your favorite locations and drop them into the Favorites and then you don't have to navigate at all.

-Kirk

Offline ali

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Re: PM ... and 21th Century Windows OS folder structure :)
« Reply #2 on: September 23, 2010, 05:03:34 PM »
Because Microsoft does not provide a 'Navigator' control for third party applications and basically every programmer has to duplicate this effort.  Why haven't we updated the Navigator to have a more modern layout?  It just hasn't been a priority for us or our customers.  Believe it or not, but you're the first person to mention the issue.

BTW, there are several ways to open folders in Photo Mechanic and that includes drag and drop, right clicking on a folder from within Windows Explorer (and choosing to open it with PM from the contextual menu), and the Open command on the file menu.  Also you can take your favorite locations and drop them into the Favorites and then you don't have to navigate at all.

-Kirk


I believe it, I haven't found any reference in the forums to the issue that afflicts me. You are all so weird ;)

The problem is not to have a "modern layout" or not ... or how many differents ways there are to open a folder ... the problem is that the visual tree structure showed by PM has NOTHING to do with the one showed by Windows Vista and/or Windows 7 and that forces me to use more steps, more clicks, to go the same place. And it's unnecessarily confusing.
Even more, I use a custom "Hot Folder" shell folder that I placed just under Desktop in Windows 7 to be the first object I find ... and it doesn't even exist in PM ...

(Maybe you should hire the guys who develop FastStone Viewer. They don't seem to have to wait for a "users' demonstration" requesting them to enter the XXI century...)

Regarding the Favorites ... are you aware of the fact that, in windows Vista and even more in Windows 7, the name showed on the Windows Explorer is not neccesarily the real name ? "Localized Names" has any meaning for the PM programmer/s ? I ask it because the program ignores them completely .. and if I were to add the Pictures folder under C:\users\UserName\ and the one at C:\Users\Public\ ... they would show up in Favorites with the exact same name, the real one for both of them, "Pictures"
Yes, it's Microsoft's fault ... but you're programming for the Microsoft OS, so just ... deal with it ?.

P.S. ... Reading the message again I guess I came across as a jerk. Maybe I am ... but that doesn't mean I'm wrong :)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2010, 05:06:26 PM by ali »

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: PM ... and 21th Century Windows OS folder structure :)
« Reply #3 on: September 23, 2010, 07:13:08 PM »
Because Microsoft does not provide a 'Navigator' control for third party applications and basically every programmer has to duplicate this effort.  Why haven't we updated the Navigator to have a more modern layout?  It just hasn't been a priority for us or our customers.  Believe it or not, but you're the first person to mention the issue.

BTW, there are several ways to open folders in Photo Mechanic and that includes drag and drop, right clicking on a folder from within Windows Explorer (and choosing to open it with PM from the contextual menu), and the Open command on the file menu.  Also you can take your favorite locations and drop them into the Favorites and then you don't have to navigate at all.

I believe it, I haven't found any reference in the forums to the issue that afflicts me. You are all so weird ;)

The problem is not to have a "modern layout" or not ... or how many differents ways there are to open a folder ... the problem is that the visual tree structure showed by PM has NOTHING to do with the one showed by Windows Vista and/or Windows 7 and that forces me to use more steps, more clicks, to go the same place. And it's unnecessarily confusing.
Even more, I use a custom "Hot Folder" shell folder that I placed just under Desktop in Windows 7 to be the first object I find ... and it doesn't even exist in PM ...

(Maybe you should hire the guys who develop FastStone Viewer. They don't seem to have to wait for a "users' demonstration" requesting them to enter the XXI century...)

Regarding the Favorites ... are you aware of the fact that, in windows Vista and even more in Windows 7, the name showed on the Windows Explorer is not neccesarily the real name ? "Localized Names" has any meaning for the PM programmer/s ? I ask it because the program ignores them completely .. and if I were to add the Pictures folder under C:\users\UserName\ and the one at C:\Users\Public\ ... they would show up in Favorites with the exact same name, the real one for both of them, "Pictures"
Yes, it's Microsoft's fault ... but you're programming for the Microsoft OS, so just ... deal with it ?.

P.S. ... Reading the message again I guess I came across as a jerk. Maybe I am ... but that doesn't mean I'm wrong :)

I'll give you a little history of how many avenues we've gone down to have a Navigator.  The first versions of PM on Windows had no Navigator, but it was a very solid reliable program that photojournalists could depend on.  Then we received a number of requests for some sort of Navigator panel.  So we licensed one.  It was unreliable and caused PM to crash.  It was replaced by a new Navigator that was written by a contract programmer and at first appeared to be reliable, but since it used various Shell iteration features of the Windows OS and the instantiation of said Shell objects caused the code of other Shell extensions to get executed within PM caused the reliability of PM to suffer.  Suddenly people couldn't quit PM (it was because of an Ericsson phone Shell extension wouldn't quit its several threads of execution when asked to do so) and other Shell extensions caused access violations (I suspect that the programmers of these products only tested their Shell extensions in the context of Windows Explorer and the code wasn't very robust).  This was unacceptable so I found an open source "Navigator", added my own code additions to it (drag and drop support, inline rename, custom context menus, and directory update notifications) but it didn't use any Shell Namespace Extensions and is very robust.  Because it doesn't iterate through these extensions it also doesn't benefit by getting whatever the latest scheme that Microsoft has tried to add as veneer over their filesystem representation.  But boy is it solid.

While I would love to see it be everything to everyone, stability is by far the most important factor here.  People's workflow depend on it.  I also imagine that most users of PM don't even bother to use these special places like 'My Photos' since that scheme is far too restrictive and would instead use multiple external SATA drives or a NAS to work with their photos.

I can tell you for certain that we will never have unknown Shell Namespace Extensions execute in Photo Mechanic ever again!

-Kirk

Offline ali

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Re: PM ... and 21th Century Windows OS folder structure :)
« Reply #4 on: September 23, 2010, 10:28:30 PM »
I'm glad the guy who invented the wheel didn't give up when the carpenter built him a defective wheel. Instead, he found a better carpenter and ... lo and behold!  ??? ;D

Anyway ... what about making possible to rename the favorites (without renaming the real folder). Would that be feasible ? We're against restrictions, aren't we ? ;)

And while we are here in the workshop ... would the carpenter be so kind to offer the possibility of having the navigator and the favorites locked up ? Once they've been set up the way I like them it would be nice if they stayed like that - even if they, understandably, wanted to move.

Offline vAfotoriporter

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Re: PM ... and 21th Century Windows OS folder structure :)
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2010, 07:36:25 AM »
Reading the message again I guess I came across as a jerk. Maybe I am ... but that doesn't mean I'm wrong :)

Not being wrong does not mean to qualify for being a jerk. Being a newcomer somewhere even with the holy grail of ethernal truth with him should make one much less rude, and politely asking can help a lot more.

I (just like many other users) have been using PM for years on different systems for my work and never had any problem with the navigator. I don't quite understand your problem but I'll let Kirk to deal with it if it has any point. But neither your arguments nor your style did convince me to feel need to care about it.
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Offline Woodie

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Re: PM ... and 21th Century Windows OS folder structure :)
« Reply #6 on: October 24, 2010, 03:09:36 PM »

I also imagine that most users of PM don't even bother to use these special places like 'My Photos' since that scheme is far too restrictive and would instead use multiple external SATA drives or a NAS to work with their photos.

-Kirk


Don't know about others, but even as far back as DOS, I've put data on a separate partition (laptop), or better yet, a different drive (desktop) than the operating system (now Win 7).  It's just a convenience issue when backing up data, imaging the OS, or installing a new operating system.  It also puts data folders at the top of the "tree" in PM so they're quick to find.  As Kirk says, I don't use My Photos since it can be a default location for apps to install files and I want to control what goes into my image folders.  Just another way of doing things I guess.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2010, 03:14:01 PM by woodie »