Author Topic: Keyb Shortcuts : Tagging, Classes, Zoom  (Read 8463 times)

Offline bokeron

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Keyb Shortcuts : Tagging, Classes, Zoom
« on: May 03, 2006, 05:20:46 PM »
I find difficult to use, or at least not as easy as it might be, the current keyboard shortcuts for tagging, applying color classes and zoom. Furthermore, it works differently when using the contact sheet or the preview mode.
It is something that would speed up the workflow - mine, at least.

I would suggest something like this.

1. Tagging
Use the SPACE BAR, for TAG and UNTAG, in both modes. It is the easier key to find. A lot easier than Control +.
Another idea would be to use the Numeric Keypad "Enter" or the point Key ( . ).
This would consolidate all these 3 (tagging, classes, zoom) funcionalities in the numeric keypad.
Even better, let us tag and untag using the space bar and the numeric keypad.

2. Color Classes
It works fairly well, even using the numeric keypad, except when you are in Contact Sheet mode.
When you use the Numeric Keypad number 3, you'd expect to apply color class 3, but what happens is that you activate/deactivate Color Management. Please redefine the color management activation shortcut.

3. Zoom
A minor improvement for me it would be the possibility to use the zoom a la Photoshop, using Control, Alt, and Click.
If not, then something must be done to return to the "NO ZOOM" state : I can zoom in, zoom out, but I cant´get out of zoom mode using the numeric keypad.
Please use the numeric keypad asterisk for this.


That's the most important features I request. I do believe these would improve usability.

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Keyb Shortcuts : Tagging, Classes, Zoom
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2006, 05:38:02 PM »
I find difficult to use, or at least not as easy as it might be, the current keyboard shortcuts for tagging, applying color classes and zoom. Furthermore, it works differently when using the contact sheet or the preview mode.
It is something that would speed up the workflow - mine, at least.

I would suggest something like this.

1. Tagging
Use the SPACE BAR, for TAG and UNTAG, in both modes. It is the easier key to find. A lot easier than Control +.
Another idea would be to use the Numeric Keypad "Enter" or the point Key ( . ).
This would consolidate all these 3 (tagging, classes, zoom) funcionalities in the numeric keypad.
Even better, let us tag and untag using the space bar and the numeric keypad.

When you have a single selection in the contact sheet, then it responds to the same keys as the Preview window.  'T' toggles the tag.
The number keys set the color class.
Space bar takes you into and out of Preview.

Quote from: bokeron
2. Color Classes
It works fairly well, even using the numeric keypad, except when you are in Contact Sheet mode.
When you use the Numeric Keypad number 3, you'd expect to apply color class 3, but what happens is that you activate/deactivate Color Management. Please redefine the color management activation shortcut.

What platform are you running on.  Please EVERYONE when you have problems or suggestions, it is useful for me to know what platform you are running on.

Normally, the 'C' key toggles the color management in the Contact Sheet.  'C' does the same thing in the Preview window.


Quote from: bokeron
3. Zoom
A minor improvement for me it would be the possibility to use the zoom a la Photoshop, using Control, Alt, and Click.
If not, then something must be done to return to the "NO ZOOM" state : I can zoom in, zoom out, but I cant´get out of zoom mode using the numeric keypad.
Please use the numeric keypad asterisk for this.

I think I see that you are running Windows.  Hold down the Control key.  Click on an area of interest in the Photo.  You will go into zoom mode centered where you clicked.  Control-click again to go back out of zoom mode.

I think that is far better than pressing various keys.

HTH,

-Kirk

Offline bokeron

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Re: Keyb Shortcuts : Tagging, Classes, Zoom
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2006, 07:03:58 PM »
I must have known better, excuse me :-)
I'm running Windows XP Pro Service Pack 2 in Spanish, Photo Mechanic version 4.4.2, using a Spanish keyboard configuration on an AMD athlon system.

The T key. I didn't find that :-( . Again, please excuse me.
But, anyways, I still find more intuitive the space bar, or alternatively hte numeric keypad "point" or "enter" , being the asterisk the "normal zoom mode / fit screen ". Or any other combination.
This way I could reach all these keys without having to look for them in the keyboard. They would be at the reach of my fingers.
Oh, and the space bar takes me into previw mode, but not out of preview mode.

Regarding the color management. Yes, the C key toggles the color management as expected.
But the ' 3 ' in the numeric keypad when in contact sheet mode does not assign the category 3 - instead, it toggles the color management.

Finally, zoom. Another thing I didn't know, the control + click. Man I should read the manual... what can I say, I'm a typical male :-P.
I've just found that pressing shift and the mouse wheel I can change the zoom level, so you need to press two keys after all, only that each key does a different thing, and you don't need to press them at the same time.

By the way, pressing shift and rotating the mouse wheel zooms in and out, but it is not centered in the cursor position as the control + click does.

I still find it would be easier for me - and faster to learn - to use the 'standard", photoshop way, though I can see the benefits in the way it works right now -- using control I can zoom to a predefined level, using shift I can zoom in and zoom out. I can live with it, it works better than I first realized.

So, if photo mechanic is still going to use zoom like this, I have a different idea I'd like to expose for consideration, though I don't know if it can be done or if it would be easy to use. Just an afterthought :

When in preview mode, a given image filling my screen ( fit screen ? ) is at 25% magnification. A different image can be at 33% or 48%.
When using shift and mouse wheel I can zoom in and zoom out, but there is no intermediate point where zoom returns to "fit screen" level.
If that intermediate point could exist, I could use the control + click when I want to zoom to a predefined level, or the shift and wheel when I'm just exploring different magnification levels.



Please let me point again to the keyboard shortcuts I referred in my first posts, modified by the new perspective I have now thanks to your explanation.

1. Tag Key - Humbly :) , I find space bar easier to use than the ' T ' key. Alternatively, or in addition, concentrate zoom, classes and tag in the numeric keypad

2. Color Classes - Judging by your answer, the ' 3 ' keypad key behaviour in contact sheet mode seems to be a bug.

3. Zoom - I can adapt to the way it works now if I need to. Still, I'd like to see it 'improved" :-) in the way I exposed above.


Please excuse me for this long post. I think Photo Mechanic is close to perfection for my uses - improved iptc managing would be nice in future upgrades - so I'm eager to 'polish it' and these few points I expose would do the trick for me.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2006, 07:33:09 PM by Kirk Baker »

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Keyb Shortcuts : Tagging, Classes, Zoom
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2006, 07:52:37 PM »
But, anyways, I still find more intuitive the space bar, or alternatively hte numeric keypad "point" or "enter" , being the asterisk the "normal zoom mode / fit screen ". Or any other combination.

But Photoshop uses the space bar to get you the "hand" cursor while you are zoomed in.  So that would contradict your desire to use it for the Tag toggle.

Quote from: bokeron
This way I could reach all these keys without having to look for them in the keyboard. They would be at the reach of my fingers. Oh, and the space bar takes me into previw mode, but not out of preview mode.

I forgot, space bar gives you the "hand" cursor in zoom mode.  Double-click goes in and out of preview.


Quote from: bokeron
Regarding the color management. Yes, the C key toggles the color management as expected.
But the ' 3 ' in the numeric keypad when in contact sheet mode does not assign the category 3 - instead, it toggles the color management.

Hmm, I guess Spanish keyboard layouts put out the same key code as the 'C' key...

Quote from: bokeron
Finally, zoom. Another thing I didn't know, the control + click. Man I should read the manual... what can I say, I'm a typical male :-P.
I've just found that pressing shift and the mouse wheel I can change the zoom level, so you need to press two keys after all, only that each key does a different thing, and you don't need to press them at the same time.

I don't see why you need to press two keys.  Control-click toggles in and out of zoom mode. When it goes into zoom mode, it goes back to the same zoom level as the last time it was zoomed.

Quote from: bokeron
By the way, pressing shift and rotating the mouse wheel zooms in and out, but it is not centered in the cursor position as the control + click does.

That is true, and of course, your mouse cursor need not be over the image.  What if the scroll wheel event came in and your mouse cursor wasn't even over the picture?  It zooms about the current center of the zoomed image.

Quote from: bokeron
I still find it would be easier for me - and faster to learn - to use the 'standard", photoshop way, though I can see the benefits in the way it works right now -- using control I can zoom to a predefined level, using shift I can zoom in and zoom out. I can live with it, it works better than I first realized.

That's good to hear, because the way it works now was guided by user requests just like you and I are doing now, and I think those previous folks would be rather disappointed if it changed now...

Quote from: bokeron
So, if photo mechanic is still going to use zoom like this, I have a different idea I'd like to expose for consideration, though I don't know if it can be done or if it would be easy to use. Just an afterthought :

When in preview mode, a given image filling my screen ( fit screen ? ) is at 25% magnification. A different image can be at 33% or 48%.
When using shift and mouse wheel I can zoom in and zoom out, but there is no intermediate point where zoom returns to "fit screen" level.
If that intermediate point could exist, I could use the control + click when I want to zoom to a predefined level, or the shift and wheel when I'm just exploring different magnification levels.

You can use the 'Z' key to go back to scale to fit mode.

Quote from: bokeron
Please let me point again to the keyboard shortcuts I referred in my first posts, modified by the new perspective I have now thanks to your explanation.

1. Tag Key - Humbly :) , I find space bar easier to use than the ' T ' key. Alternatively, or in addition, concentrate zoom, classes and tag in the numeric keypad

Sorry, not going to change it.  Once you get into cropping while in zoom mode, you'll see why it is nice to get the "hand" cursor when you need it.

Quote from: bokeron
2. Color Classes - Judging by your answer, the ' 3 ' keypad key behaviour in contact sheet mode seems to be a bug.

Agreed.  I'll look into it.

Quote from: bokeron
3. Zoom - I can adapt to the way it works now if I need to. Still, I'd like to see it 'improved" :-) in the way I exposed above.


Please excuse me for this long post. I think Photo Mechanic is close to perfection for my uses - improved iptc managing would be nice in future upgrades - so I'm eager to 'polish it' and these few points I expose would do the trick for me.

That's good to hear.  Feel free to post about what you want improved in the IPTC management.

-Kirk

Offline bokeron

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Re: Keyb Shortcuts : Tagging, Classes, Zoom
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2006, 07:57:18 AM »
Thanks for your answers and your interest, Kirk.

Yes, using the space bar for tagging is not what photoshop does, but as Photo Mechanic doesn't behave as Photoshop in the "zoom department", I can't see why it has to respect this point and don't use the space bar.

The space bar doesn't show the hand cursor when in zoom mode but in crop mode.
In crop mode, I can press the Space Bar OR the Shift key to get the hand cursor... I can't see why I need two alternative keys for this in cropping mode, and I can't have but one for tagging... I believe tagging is a more common operation than cropping.
I'd like to have if not a default behaviour at least the oportunity to redefine some key functions.


About the zoom and the "Photoshop Key Combinations". As I said, I can live with it as it is, it is not that hard to get used to the way it works, and I see the benefits.
I was just interested in this because I guess most people who use Photo Mechanic will also use Photoshop, so the transition from one program to the other would be seamless in this regard.
Anyways, I won't try to go further in my reasoning about this. I do find the Control + click to a predefined zoom level useful.


About the zoom and the Shift key.

Quote
That is true, and of course, your mouse cursor need not be over the image.  What if the scroll wheel event came in and your mouse cursor wasn't even over the picture?  It zooms about the current center of the zoomed image

Then control the boundaries where the wheel event cames in, and make Photo Mechanic act accordingly.
Anyways, I can point the cursor over the image quite well, so this can be left to the user. If I don't, then it's my fault... as with many other functions, it can't be made foolproof.
But, as I said, the way it works now is good enough, so if this don't change I still can use it , though I think it would be easier to have a centered Shift + wheel zoom, just like Control + click.

What about a "fit screen" position in the zoom scale - for shift + wheel use - . Can this be done ?


Now, the keyboard shortcut for zoom.

Quote
You can use the 'Z' key to go back to scale to fit mode.

Yes, but if I'm using the numeric keypad for zoom in / out, and to apply color classes - if the '3' behaviour can be solved - I have to move the hand over the Z. I'm not going to have a heart attack if I have to do this, but the numeric keypad asterisk is unused, so why don't use it as a "fit screen" shortcut ?
So, If I can perform this common tasks in the numeric keypad, what about using some key to perform the tag untag function there too, without moving the hand to the "T"  ?
It is faster this way is you are using numeric keypad + mouse to control the program common functions, I believe.




So, summing up all my "concerns", and as it seems you're not favorable to altering the default behaviour of Photo Mechanic - and I do undestand that any other user might regret it if you change it -, then what it seems I'm asking for - or what I'd settle for  ;) -  is to allow me to redefine the keyboard shortcuts. Some of them, at least. Tagging, fundamentally, and zooming to a smaller degree.
But taking into account that sometimes I'm using a keyboard only approach, or a keyboard + mouse... I would like to have the possibility to define the Space Bar and the numeric keypad Enter or Decimal key for tagging function, and the Z and the numeric keypad asterisk for "fit screen zoom".



I'll look further into the IPTC department and see if I can come up with concise suggestions.
I guess what I'd like Photo Mechanic to be is a viewing, selecting and IPTC / XMP tool. There's no tool that can do this fully and with the speed and ease of use Photo Mechanic offers, it would be a powerful application for doing this..
I convert RAW images using other programs, I upload pics to my web using other tools.
My approach to the developing of the program would be to keep Photo Mechanic simple and powerful.

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Keyb Shortcuts : Tagging, Classes, Zoom
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2006, 08:18:18 AM »
Since these posts are getting fairly long now and complicated to reply to, let's simplify a bit.

Just list for me what you want each key on the numeric keypad to do.  I'll consider your layout.

Thanks,

-Kirk

Offline bokeron

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Re: Keyb Shortcuts : Tagging, Classes, Zoom
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2006, 08:33:53 AM »
I'm sorry for the long posts. I can't explain it well enough using less words, my English is not that good and I have to use undesired circumlocutions. Please accept my apologies.

Numeric Keypad Decimal Point or Enter for Tagging.
Numeric Keypad Asterisk or Slash for "Fit Screen Zoom"

Or alternatively, in future releases, the possibility to redefine keyboard shortcuts.



Once again, thanks for your attention, Kirk.

Offline gendem

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Re: Keyb Shortcuts : Tagging, Classes, Zoom
« Reply #7 on: December 26, 2007, 01:58:00 PM »
FWIW I agree that the spacebar is a great idea for tagging.  Better yet would be user definable keyboard shortcuts.

Offline Frantisek Vlcek

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Re: Keyb Shortcuts : Tagging, Classes, Zoom
« Reply #8 on: December 27, 2007, 12:49:00 PM »
Just my two cents, while numeric keypad is nice, it's a no-no option for all laptop users. I find the current shortcuts quite fine, with few exceptions, but I see no problem with the T 12345 (123456780) concept of tagging/rating. These keys are very close to each other, so I can go quickly trough photos tagging as well as rating. And when I need to be fast, it's usually on the laptop.

Regarding zooming, both Z key and CTRL+CLICK zoom you in/out of the photo. No need for separate keys like / * in ACDSee and others.

Second, most people have their right hand on the mouse, with left hand on the keyboard. Stretching my left hand for the numeric keypad (which is way to the right), even when I am working on the desktop, would be too much stress I think.

Your mileage may vary of course :)

Frantisek

Offline Hayo Baan

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Re: Keyb Shortcuts : Tagging, Classes, Zoom
« Reply #9 on: December 28, 2007, 08:54:29 AM »
Frantisek, my thoughts exactly!
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