Author Topic: Workflow questions on tagging and other  (Read 9026 times)

Offline Denis

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • Posts: 14
    • View Profile
Workflow questions on tagging and other
« on: September 13, 2011, 04:25:45 PM »
I am a sports photographer and I have been using photomechanics both in the field (screen / sort / tag / send photos from the sidelines) and in the office (screen / tag photos) and I have a few workflow questions.

Multiple people working on pictures

To increase speed of delivery to my clients (which is critical in sports), I am planning to "subcontract" all the tagging (headlines, captions) to my daughter.  She'd be working using PhotoMechanics on my laptop while I process the photos in Lightroom on my high power desktop.  My question is how best to do that from a file handing perspective?

Is it as simple as mounting the desktop folder where the RAW files are on the laptop and have us both plug away at the same time since PM writes to the RAW file IPTC but LR doesn't touch the RAW files?  Any potential issues with file corruption?

Tagging post production files

Here is my regular workflow:
  • 1 - Copy all the files (RAW images) from my CF cards to my local hard drive
  • 2 - Use PM to cull out all the obviously bad shots (out of focus, no interest, etc...)
  • 3 - Import all the remaining pictures into LightRoom and process them (crop, exposure, white balance, etc...).  More pictures are eliminated at that stage
  • 4 - Go back into PM to tag all the photos remaining (headline, caption, etc...), working on the RAW files
  • 5 - Finally go back into LR, import all the metadata for the files, then do various export depending on the client needs, destination

My problem is that in stage 4 when I go back into PM to tag all the photos, I don't see any of the edits that have been done in LR.  This is a problem for the cropping, as some people in the picture my have (or not) been cropped out of the final image, which would change the caption / headline.  Any suggestion to get around that?

Thanks.

Denis
www.widgic.com

Offline Kirk Baker

  • Senior Software Engineer
  • Camera Bits Staff
  • Superhero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21689
    • View Profile
    • Camera Bits, Inc.
Re: Workflow questions on tagging and other
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2011, 07:11:22 PM »
Denis,

I am a sports photographer and I have been using photomechanics both in the field (screen / sort / tag / send photos from the sidelines) and in the office (screen / tag photos) and I have a few workflow questions.

Multiple people working on pictures

To increase speed of delivery to my clients (which is critical in sports), I am planning to "subcontract" all the tagging (headlines, captions) to my daughter.  She'd be working using PhotoMechanics on my laptop while I process the photos in Lightroom on my high power desktop.  My question is how best to do that from a file handing perspective?

Is it as simple as mounting the desktop folder where the RAW files are on the laptop and have us both plug away at the same time since PM writes to the RAW file IPTC but LR doesn't touch the RAW files?  Any potential issues with file corruption?

You should never have two applications write to a given file at the same.  Corruption will occur.  I suggest you and your assistant work on different folders of images.

Quote from: Denis
Tagging post production files

Here is my regular workflow:
  • 1 - Copy all the files (RAW images) from my CF cards to my local hard drive
  • 2 - Use PM to cull out all the obviously bad shots (out of focus, no interest, etc...)
  • 3 - Import all the remaining pictures into LightRoom and process them (crop, exposure, white balance, etc...).  More pictures are eliminated at that stage
  • 4 - Go back into PM to tag all the photos remaining (headline, caption, etc...), working on the RAW files
  • 5 - Finally go back into LR, import all the metadata for the files, then do various export depending on the client needs, destination

My problem is that in stage 4 when I go back into PM to tag all the photos, I don't see any of the edits that have been done in LR.  This is a problem for the cropping, as some people in the picture my have (or not) been cropped out of the final image, which would change the caption / headline.  Any suggestion to get around that?

No real workarounds are available for this issue (unless you don't mind converting to DNG) because Lightroom does not update the JPEG preview contained within the RAW files.

-Kirk

Offline Denis

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • Posts: 14
    • View Profile
Re: Workflow questions on tagging and other
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2011, 07:19:30 PM »
Hi Kirk:

Thanks for the info.

You should never have two applications write to a given file at the same.  Corruption will occur.  I suggest you and your assistant work on different folders of images.

I understand that, but... I also thought that LightRoom NEVER touched the original RAW files, all the information was stored in the sidecar files (.xmp).  If (that I don't know) PhotoMechanics write the IPTC info to the actualy RAW files, no file should be open for read at the same time by both applications.  Is that the case?

If we work on different copies of the images, how do I merge the information back into the original files?

No real workarounds are available for this issue (unless you don't mind converting to DNG) because Lightroom does not update the JPEG preview contained within the RAW files.

Ah... So, the solution might be to do an export first, then work with PM on the exported files (JPG) and then merge back the info into the RAW files.  That's a similar question to the one above, is this possible?

Thanks!

Offline Kirk Baker

  • Senior Software Engineer
  • Camera Bits Staff
  • Superhero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 21689
    • View Profile
    • Camera Bits, Inc.
Re: Workflow questions on tagging and other
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2011, 08:40:23 PM »
Denis,

You should never have two applications write to a given file at the same.  Corruption will occur.  I suggest you and your assistant work on different folders of images.

I understand that, but... I also thought that LightRoom NEVER touched the original RAW files, all the information was stored in the sidecar files (.xmp).  If (that I don't know) PhotoMechanics write the IPTC info to the actualy RAW files, no file should be open for read at the same time by both applications.  Is that the case?

If we work on different copies of the images, how do I merge the information back into the original files?

I'm not suggesting that you duplicate any files, just that you compartmentalize things a bit.  But yes, LR isn't going to write to the RAW files, but PM would be updating the XMP sidecar files and LR could be updating the XMP sidecar files at the same time.  It really depends on what you're doing in each of the applications.

Quote from: Denis
No real workarounds are available for this issue (unless you don't mind converting to DNG) because Lightroom does not update the JPEG preview contained within the RAW files.

Ah... So, the solution might be to do an export first, then work with PM on the exported files (JPG) and then merge back the info into the RAW files.  That's a similar question to the one above, is this possible?

I don't know.  Does LR offer such a feature?  Or are you planning on using the Update IPTC/XMP Metadata tool in PM for that task?

-Kirk

Offline mbbphoto

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 306
    • View Profile
Re: Workflow questions on tagging and other
« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2011, 08:40:27 AM »
Interesting thread.
I have never got around this issue satisfactorily.
As kirk suggests we break down the shoots into sections and only process after we're done with metadata editing and culling.
IMHO The workarounds get scarily complicated leading to the occasional screw up.
Perhaps others have better suggestions...
Marc

Denis,

You should never have two applications write to a given file at the same.  Corruption will occur.  I suggest you and your assistant work on different folders of images.

I understand that, but... I also thought that LightRoom NEVER touched the original RAW files, all the information was stored in the sidecar files (.xmp).  If (that I don't know) PhotoMechanics write the IPTC info to the actualy RAW files, no file should be open for read at the same time by both applications.  Is that the case?

If we work on different copies of the images, how do I merge the information back into the original files?

I'm not suggesting that you duplicate any files, just that you compartmentalize things a bit.  But yes, LR isn't going to write to the RAW files, but PM would be updating the XMP sidecar files and LR could be updating the XMP sidecar files at the same time.  It really depends on what you're doing in each of the applications.

Quote from: Denis
No real workarounds are available for this issue (unless you don't mind converting to DNG) because Lightroom does not update the JPEG preview contained within the RAW files.

Ah... So, the solution might be to do an export first, then work with PM on the exported files (JPG) and then merge back the info into the RAW files.  That's a similar question to the one above, is this possible?

I don't know.  Does LR offer such a feature?  Or are you planning on using the Update IPTC/XMP Metadata tool in PM for that task?

-Kirk

Marc

Offline Luiz Muzzi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 704
    • View Profile
    • Luiz Muzzi Photography
Re: Workflow questions on tagging and other
« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2011, 11:05:38 AM »
Hi, Dennis
I will tell what my workflow is and you can see if it may help you in some way.
I shoot in raw and ingest the raw files with PM into my MacBook.
Then I review the photos in PM, color sorting, tagging, and deleting the really bad pictures. After this first round, I rename and apply basic IPTC to the remaining pictures (still all raw).
After that, I open the pictures in DPP (LR, in your case).
In DPP I correct exposure and white balance, and crop the pictures, if necessary. After all that, I use DPP to convert the files to JPEG maximum resolution, maintaining the same names.
Finally, I open the files in PM (raw and jpeg together) and review the photos again, checking if there are any other photos to be deleted and applying IPTC data to specific photos, like keywords and captions.
After this last round, I rename the photos again with PM.
HTH

-Luiz Muzzi
 

Offline mbbphoto

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 306
    • View Profile
Re: Workflow questions on tagging and other
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2011, 05:39:11 AM »
Pretty much exactly what we do.
Marc

 
Hi, Dennis
I will tell what my workflow is and you can see if it may help you in some way.
I shoot in raw and ingest the raw files with PM into my MacBook.
Then I review the photos in PM, color sorting, tagging, and deleting the really bad pictures. After this first round, I rename and apply basic IPTC to the remaining pictures (still all raw).
After that, I open the pictures in DPP (LR, in your case).
In DPP I correct exposure and white balance, and crop the pictures, if necessary. After all that, I use DPP to convert the files to JPEG maximum resolution, maintaining the same names.
Finally, I open the files in PM (raw and jpeg together) and review the photos again, checking if there are any other photos to be deleted and applying IPTC data to specific photos, like keywords and captions.
After this last round, I rename the photos again with PM.
HTH

-Luiz Muzzi
 

Marc

Offline Denis

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • Posts: 14
    • View Profile
Re: Workflow questions on tagging and other
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2011, 10:28:21 AM »
Hi, Dennis
I will tell what my workflow is and you can see if it may help you in some way.
I shoot in raw and ingest the raw files with PM into my MacBook.
Then I review the photos in PM, color sorting, tagging, and deleting the really bad pictures. After this first round, I rename and apply basic IPTC to the remaining pictures (still all raw).
After that, I open the pictures in DPP (LR, in your case).
In DPP I correct exposure and white balance, and crop the pictures, if necessary. After all that, I use DPP to convert the files to JPEG maximum resolution, maintaining the same names.
Finally, I open the files in PM (raw and jpeg together) and review the photos again, checking if there are any other photos to be deleted and applying IPTC data to specific photos, like keywords and captions.
After this last round, I rename the photos again with PM.
HTH

-Luiz Muzzi
 


Hi Luiz:

Thanks for the info.  I'll have to check in your next to last step (when you apply the IPTC data to the specific photos) if PM tags both the JPG and the RAW files so that I can import the data back into the LR sidecar file, but that might work. 

Altho it won't solve my problem of having an assistant tagging the photos while I do the edits to the RAW files.  Maybe I can do the cropping in a first pass, export the cropped photos to JPG's, then do all the color correction / fine tuning of the RAW while my assistant does all the tagging and when everything is ready, merge back the IPTC changes into the RAW / Sidecar and re-do a JPG export.  I have to check if I can do that with the "Update IPTC/XMP"

More things to try!

Denis

Offline vAfotoriporter

  • Uber Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1029
    • View Profile
    • Attila Volgyi photojournalist
Re: Workflow questions on tagging and other
« Reply #8 on: September 18, 2011, 02:46:31 PM »
I think the best way is to use LR only as an editor and drop using its catalog features.

Your assistant can work on an exported JPG set or a copy of the RAW files (depends how you implement things). The key is your assistant edits only the metadata stuff while you only edit the picture and don't modify any metadata. This way the output of his metadata changes can be synced to the output of your picture editing.

If your output from LR is JPG (as I know you cannot edit and save modifications into a RAW file) than your assistant should edit the metadata of a copy of the RAW files as you can update the IPTC/XMP of RAW+JPG pairs.

If you intend to use LR as the final destination and use its catalog features too. Then you should edit the captions and other things first in PM and only then perform your picture editing what would slow down the workflow.
Working on Mac, OSX, iOS and with some Canons.
Allways shooting RAW.

http://www.volgyiattila.com

Offline Luiz Muzzi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 704
    • View Profile
    • Luiz Muzzi Photography
Re: Workflow questions on tagging and other
« Reply #9 on: September 23, 2011, 10:33:24 AM »

I'll have to check in your next to last step (when you apply the IPTC data to the specific photos) if PM tags both the JPG and the RAW files so that I can import the data back into the LR sidecar file, but that might work. 
[/quote]

Hi, Denis
As to to the first part of what you said, I am sure that when you apply IPTC data to the specific photos PM tags both the jpeg and the raw files, although in DPP you will not see the tags in the raw files (but they are there). Now, I really cannot see why you have to import the data back into LR sidecar file...
Also, I agree with Szurkebarat when he says that you should use LR for editing and PM for organizing, sorting, tagging, etc.
HTH,

-Luiz Muzzi

Offline Denis

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • Posts: 14
    • View Profile
Re: Workflow questions on tagging and other
« Reply #10 on: September 23, 2011, 10:40:18 AM »

Also, I agree with Szurkebarat when he says that you should use LR for editing and PM for organizing, sorting, tagging, etc.
HTH,

-Luiz Muzzi

Well, because I have to use LR to "export" my files from RAW to JPG for publication.  During that process (actually before that), I rename the files using the IPTC Headline tag (which contains the name of the person in the photo).

I could rename the files in PM, but they LR gets confused and I need to "find" the missing files (an extra step).

I also use LR cataloging to find specific photos based on the IPTC data (for example "David Beckham").  Then I can pick the photos I want, tweak them and export them.

Denis

Offline Denis

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • Posts: 14
    • View Profile
Re: Workflow questions on tagging and other
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2011, 01:07:27 PM »
Just an update.  I stumble on a LR plug called Syncomatic (http://www.photographers-toolbox.com/products/jbeardsworth/syncomatic/) which might be able to do the trick. According to the web page:

Quote
Syncomatic is a Lightroom 3 plug-in to synchronise Library metadata and Develop adjustments (except the crop)

    between pairs of files whose names are identical (or have a suffix like -edit) but where the file types differ
    from the top item of a stack to the other stacked items

I haven't tried it yet, but it might do the trick.


Offline Luiz Muzzi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 704
    • View Profile
    • Luiz Muzzi Photography
Re: Workflow questions on tagging and other
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2011, 01:17:59 PM »
Hi, Dennis
If I were you I would rename files in PM after having edited and converted them to jpeg in LR.
Also, I think you can find specific photos based on IPTC data in PM too.
Regards,

-Luiz Muzzi

Offline SamFrost

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 241
    • View Profile
    • Sam Frost Photography
Re: Workflow questions on tagging and other
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2011, 06:09:09 AM »
Hi, Dennis
If I were you I would rename files in PM after having edited and converted them to jpeg in LR.
Also, I think you can find specific photos based on IPTC data in PM too.
Regards,

-Luiz Muzzi

If you have files which are in Lightroom's database and you rename them in another program, Lightroom will lose track of them and you will have to tell it which they are one by one.  This is very fiddly and not a mistake to make twice!

Offline Luiz Muzzi

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 704
    • View Profile
    • Luiz Muzzi Photography
Re: Workflow questions on tagging and other
« Reply #14 on: September 30, 2011, 10:21:27 AM »
Hi, SamFrost
I myself use DPP for editing... and I rename photos whenever necessary (mainly after deleting, so that the sequence is kept) and there is no problem at all. But I am really not much familiar with LR.
Regards,

-Luiz Muzzi