Author Topic: Color Profiling in Photomechanic  (Read 5273 times)

Offline dkuhn

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Color Profiling in Photomechanic
« on: November 29, 2011, 08:08:24 AM »
We are struggling with some issues related to color profiling in photomechanic and photos uploaded to various websites.  We are profiling photos as sRBG in photoshop.  We view them in photomechanic [preferences in PM set to RBG].  We are using a NEC2690wuxi calibrated screen for viewing.

With the profile toggle switch off, the photos look like a very colorful sRBG. Toggle the profile switch to on, and they look like RBG.

When we upload these same sRBG photos to 4 websites, the look like RBG on 3 of those websites, except one site which looks just like the original sRBG in photomechanic.  One of the sites  indicates they convert any photos to sRBG, but the resulting photos looks like RBG.  Download photos from all 4 sites to PM and they look like sRBG

I could send an email word attachment showing print screens of all this.  I'm trying to find out how photomechanic is seeing things verses what browsers are seeing, or not seeing.

Question
1. Do sRBG photos look more exaggerated [especially reds and greens] in photomechanic over what they would look like in most browsers?
2. Does the calibrated monitor exaggerate the sRBG profiles seen in PM verses a computer off the store shelf?
3. Do you have any idea why we are experiencing the change in profile appearance for most websites we are uploading the photos too?  Yet one of those websites looks exactly the same.

Hope you can follow this and can offer some insights.
Dwight

Offline dkuhn

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Re: Color Profiling in Photomechanic
« Reply #1 on: November 29, 2011, 08:13:47 AM »
I saw your note about  other information you may need. 
windows xp, pc  version 4.5.3

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Color Profiling in Photomechanic
« Reply #2 on: November 29, 2011, 10:26:19 AM »
Dwight,

We are struggling with some issues related to color profiling in photomechanic and photos uploaded to various websites.  We are profiling photos as sRBG in photoshop.  We view them in photomechanic [preferences in PM set to RBG].  We are using a NEC2690wuxi calibrated screen for viewing.

With the profile toggle switch off, the photos look like a very colorful sRBG. Toggle the profile switch to on, and they look like RBG.

When we upload these same sRBG photos to 4 websites, the look like RBG on 3 of those websites, except one site which looks just like the original sRBG in photomechanic.  One of the sites  indicates they convert any photos to sRBG, but the resulting photos looks like RBG.  Download photos from all 4 sites to PM and they look like sRBG

I could send an email word attachment showing print screens of all this.  I'm trying to find out how photomechanic is seeing things verses what browsers are seeing, or not seeing.

Question
1. Do sRBG photos look more exaggerated [especially reds and greens] in photomechanic over what they would look like in most browsers?
2. Does the calibrated monitor exaggerate the sRBG profiles seen in PM verses a computer off the store shelf?
3. Do you have any idea why we are experiencing the change in profile appearance for most websites we are uploading the photos too?  Yet one of those websites looks exactly the same.

When you tell PM to use sRGB as the default profile, PM uses sRGB when an image has no color profile information associated with it.  I expect that your images that you're uploading do not have color profile information in them.  Have you tried using the 'Embed ICC Profile into JPEGs...' command on the Tools menu?  This should tag them with your chosen profile (which sRGB is a choice in the tool.)

HTH,

-Kirk

Offline dkuhn

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Re: Color Profiling in Photomechanic
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2011, 11:27:06 AM »
Thanks for the reply Kirk.  We really love Photomechanic.  It is a great tool and probably our favorite one.

The photos do already have the following profile associated with it.  Here is the information from PM image info area
icc profile: sRBG IEC61966-2.1 [embedded]
I just did your procedure for embedding the profile to check it and there was no difference

Dwight
PS: I tried to upload a word document screen shot [less than 3000kbs] showing the differences, but it failed.

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Color Profiling in Photomechanic
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2011, 02:13:17 PM »
Dwight,

Thanks for the reply Kirk.  We really love Photomechanic.  It is a great tool and probably our favorite one.

The photos do already have the following profile associated with it.  Here is the information from PM image info area
icc profile: sRBG IEC61966-2.1 [embedded]
I just did your procedure for embedding the profile to check it and there was no difference

Dwight
PS: I tried to upload a word document screen shot [less than 3000kbs] showing the differences, but it failed.

Try uploading just a JPEG screenshot.  They work fine.

-Kirk

Offline dkuhn

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Re: Color Profiling in Photomechanic
« Reply #5 on: November 29, 2011, 03:30:53 PM »
Kirk
The attached jpgs show the following monitor screen shots. The photos unless otherwise noted were all embedded sRBG photos uploaded to various websites and as viewed in photomechanic
Page 1. Four websites showing the same uploaded sRBG photo. 
Note: The kuhnphoto.net site looks like the original sRBG, the others look like RBG

Page 2. Photomechanic with color profile toggle switch off.  the photos were downloaded from the 4 websites.  There is an original sRBG and RBG photo for comparison.
Note:  All photos look like the original sRBG except the one which is an original RBG photo

Page 3. Photomechanic with color profile toggle switch on.  the photos were downloaded from the 4 websites.  There is an original sRBG and RBG photo for comparison.
Note:  All photos look like RBG, except Photoshelter.  Photoshelter looks like a sRBG photo.

Hope this helps.
Dwight

[attachment deleted by admin]

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Color Profiling in Photomechanic
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2011, 06:25:44 AM »
Dwight,

The attached jpgs show the following monitor screen shots. The photos unless otherwise noted were all embedded sRBG photos uploaded to various websites and as viewed in photomechanic
Page 1. Four websites showing the same uploaded sRBG photo. 
Note: The kuhnphoto.net site looks like the original sRBG, the others look like RBG

Page 2. Photomechanic with color profile toggle switch off.  the photos were downloaded from the 4 websites.  There is an original sRBG and RBG photo for comparison.
Note:  All photos look like the original sRBG except the one which is an original RBG photo

Page 3. Photomechanic with color profile toggle switch on.  the photos were downloaded from the 4 websites.  There is an original sRBG and RBG photo for comparison.
Note:  All photos look like RBG, except Photoshelter.  Photoshelter looks like a sRBG photo.

Thanks for the samples.  I don't know what would cause that to happen.  Would you mind getting a demo version of PM 4.6.8 and trying it and seeing if it has the same issue?  Please let me know what you find.

You can get a free 20 day demo from our website: http://www.camerabits.com

You don't have to uninstall your current version in order to try the demo.

Thanks,

-Kirk

Offline mklass

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Re: Color Profiling in Photomechanic
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2011, 09:05:21 PM »
Could it be a browser issue related to how the browser manages color managed files?

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Re: Color Profiling in Photomechanic
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2011, 10:15:02 PM »
Mick,

Could it be a browser issue related to how the browser manages color managed files?

Possibly.  It could also be the various services and whether they use the uploaded image as is or whether they do some sort of post-processing.

But I see some potential issues in the pictures shown by PM as well.  To truly know what is going on I would have to have each of the various images so I could investigate further.

-Kirk

Offline dkuhn

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Re: Color Profiling in Photomechanic
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2011, 11:12:21 AM »
Hello
I've downloaded the newest version of PM and see no difference from the 4.5.3 version.

We have three identical NEC2690WUXI wide gamut monitors [spectraview calibrated] in our group.  One of them is off campus.  My phone comparison of the shots with my off campus partner indicate he is not seeing the red shift like I am [when I toggle the profile icon in PM].  My guess is this may be a calibration variation and for some reason, my monitor is being more sensitive to the reds. I'm surprised there is this variation.  But this is somewhat subjective since the monitors are not side by side.

We did find out from Photoshelter they attach a sRBG profile to the images but their aim is not to change the photo. All the sRBG shot examples are profiled embedded IEC61966-2.1, whereas Photoshelter is called sRBG built in [embedded]. I'm not sure what that means. There is a definite difference in the histogram for Photoshelter vrs the other images.

Kirk. Do you still want to see the individual images?  I saw your note about that.  If so, where do I send these small preview size jpgs?

Thanks so much for taking the time to review this.

Dwight

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Color Profiling in Photomechanic
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2011, 11:48:33 AM »
Dwight,

I've downloaded the newest version of PM and see no difference from the 4.5.3 version.

We have three identical NEC2690WUXI wide gamut monitors [spectraview calibrated] in our group.  One of them is off campus.  My phone comparison of the shots with my off campus partner indicate he is not seeing the red shift like I am [when I toggle the profile icon in PM].  My guess is this may be a calibration variation and for some reason, my monitor is being more sensitive to the reds. I'm surprised there is this variation.  But this is somewhat subjective since the monitors are not side by side.

We did find out from Photoshelter they attach a sRBG profile to the images but their aim is not to change the photo. All the sRBG shot examples are profiled embedded IEC61966-2.1, whereas Photoshelter is called sRBG built in [embedded]. I'm not sure what that means. There is a definite difference in the histogram for Photoshelter vrs the other images.

Kirk. Do you still want to see the individual images?  I saw your note about that.  If so, where do I send these small preview size jpgs?

Please click on my name to the left of this message, then click on the 'personal message' link.  I will respond with upload instructions.

-Kirk

Offline dkuhn

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Re: Color Profiling in Photomechanic
« Reply #11 on: December 02, 2011, 12:59:22 PM »
Kirk
Just checking to see if you got the ftp upload photos and email support information according to your link you provided.

Dwight

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Color Profiling in Photomechanic
« Reply #12 on: December 02, 2011, 01:40:38 PM »
Dwight,

Just checking to see if you got the ftp upload photos and email support information according to your link you provided.

Yes, I have received the files, and will get back to you in the next few days.

-Kirk

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Color Profiling in Photomechanic
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2011, 03:06:25 PM »
Dwight,

Here is what I think is going on.  In the photo that you call RBG (it's really Adobe RGB 1998) the pixels have been converted to that color space which is different from simply assigning a particular profile.  The pixels have already been modified.  All of the rest of the images have deeply saturated pixel data and when shown with the embedded sRGB IEC61966-2.1 they get somewhat desaturated.  The pixel data is still vibrant, it just gets toned down when viewed with color matching from sRGB IEC61966-2.1 to your monitor's profile.  When color management is turned off, the uncorrected pixels get drawn directly to your screen and look very vibrant, with the exception of the Adobe RGB 1998 image which has already been toned down somewhat.

Your monitor calibration is likely just fine.  If you really want to adjust color to be viewed as an sRGB target, I suggest setting up Photoshop to proof to "Internet Standard RGB (sRGB)" and then make your adjustments.  Later you can experiment with the "Assign Profile..." and "Convert to Profile..." commands on Photoshop's Edit menu to see what has the best result for the websites you need to support.  Please make sure you're using a color aware browser like Safari or Firefox to do your evaluations of the images you upload to websites.

HTH,

-Kirk

Offline dkuhn

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Re: Color Profiling in Photomechanic
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2011, 07:15:32 AM »
Thank you for taking the time to review this, Kirk.  We appreciate the insights.
Dwight