Lightroom Ratings don't register in Photoshop if ingesting via PM

[pjjones]

OK - here's a very difficult problem which I have spent hours trying to sort out - hoping there's a simple solution.

Problem: Photoshop doesn't recognize ratings made by Lightroom if the photo was injested using Photo Mechanic.

Using PM 5.0 Build 15277 on Windows 7 x64  Lightroom 5.3  Photoshop 14.2.1

Here is my process:
1. Injest photos from a wedding using Photo Mechanic
2. Add the photos to a new Lightroom catalogue. (Using Import - Add)
3. Rate the photos using Lightroom.
4. Edit the rated photos in Photoshop
5. Save the edited photo in Photoshop
6. The edited photo reappears in Lightroom, but the edited photo doesn't have a rating.

BUT if I import photos using Lightroom, and use steps 3-5 above, the edited photo that reappears in Lightroom has the rating applied to it that I set in step 3 above.


My troubleshooting:
If I open the PM injested, LR rated photo in Photoshop and look at File -> File Info, there is no rating shown.

If I open the LR imported, LR rated photo in Photoshop and do the same, there is a rating shown there.

The only solution I can find is to go to PM, select the photos and go to Tools -> Delete Metadata.  Then go to LR and tell it to 'Read Metadata from File'.  Then if I set the rating in LR and edit it in Photoshop, the rating appears correctly. 

This would be a fine solution if I was only working on new material, but I have 5 weddings I am processing that have all been injested using PM, and if I delete the Metada and tell LR to 'Read Metadata From File' it removes the ratings and any edits in develop mode that I have made with Lightroom.

Any ideas?

Thanks
Paul

[Kirk Baker]

Paul,

What is the file format of your photos?

-Kirk

[pjjones]

Hi Kirk

They are RAW files from Canon 5D Mk III.

Thanks
Paul

[Kirk Baker]

Paul,

They are RAW files from Canon 5D Mk III.

Are you using an XMP sidecar workflow or are you embedding XMP into your CR2 files?  We suggest using XMP sidecar files when working with Adobe products.

-Kirk

[pjjones]

I've only just recently got Photo Mechanic, so it was just set as the default, which I think embedded the XMP files as well as writing a sidecar file.

After looking into this, I have changed the Photo Mechanic defaults so that any future injesting doesn't do this, but the problem I have is dealing with 5 weddings worth of images that have been previously injested this way.  Just wondering if there is a solution to this?

Thanks
Paul

[Kirk Baker]

Paul,

I've only just recently got Photo Mechanic, so it was just set as the default, which I think embedded the XMP files as well as writing a sidecar file.

After looking into this, I have changed the Photo Mechanic defaults so that any future injesting doesn't do this, but the problem I have is dealing with 5 weddings worth of images that have been previously injested this way.  Just wondering if there is a solution to this?

I suggest first finding out if the change in settings solves the problem.  If it does, there is a tool on the Tools menu that can strip out the embedded XMP for your other files.

-Kirk

[pjjones]

Hi Kirk

Thanks for your help in trying to sort this out.

I have just done the following:
1. Went into the Photo Mechanic preferences and clicked on the 'IPTC/XMP' tab, clicked the lightening bolt and selected 'Adobe products'.  It changed the settings so that it only created sidecar files.
2. Injested the files from a CF card to my hard drive (taken with Canon 5D Mk III)
3. Closed Photo Mechanic
4. Opened Lightroom
5. Import, and added the files from the folder I imported them to.
6. Set the rating on a photo to 3 stars.
7. Pressed ctrl-e to edit the file - it opened in Photoshop.
8. If I looked at the 'File -> File Info...' it says that it isn't rated (in fact there is very little XMP info in the file at all).  If I save the photo in Photoshop, it saves it and Lightroom displays the edited photo, but there is no rating on the edited photo - just like before.

So, unfortunately this hasn't made any difference.

So, I did the following:
1. Removed all those photos from Lightroom.
2. Navigated to the folder in Windows Explorer
3. Deleted all the sidecar files
4. Reimported the photos into Lightroom
5. Set the rating on a photo to 3 stars
6. Edit in Photoshop
7. And it works!  The rating in file info shows as 3 stars, and when I save it in Photoshop it appears back in Lightroom as 3 stars.

It seems like Photo Mechanic is doing something weird with the XMP sidecar files on the 5D Mk III that Lightroom doesn't like.  If you want me to send you one of the sidecar XMP files that it is creating I'd be happy to do that.

So, this is a work around for any work in the future, but it does seem something is screwy with the sidecar files, and it doesn't fix my current problem, as if I use the tool to delete the XMP data, and then update the metadata in Lightroom, it undoes any colour correcting that we have had done already on all the photos in the Develop module on Lightroom.

Let me know your thoughts.

Thanks
Paul

[Kirk Baker]

Paul,

I have just done the following:
1. Went into the Photo Mechanic preferences and clicked on the 'IPTC/XMP' tab, clicked the lightening bolt and selected 'Adobe products'.  It changed the settings so that it only created sidecar files.
2. Injested the files from a CF card to my hard drive (taken with Canon 5D Mk III)
3. Closed Photo Mechanic
4. Opened Lightroom
5. Import, and added the files from the folder I imported them to.
6. Set the rating on a photo to 3 stars.
7. Pressed ctrl-e to edit the file - it opened in Photoshop.
8. If I looked at the 'File -> File Info...' it says that it isn't rated (in fact there is very little XMP info in the file at all).  If I save the photo in Photoshop, it saves it and Lightroom displays the edited photo, but there is no rating on the edited photo - just like before.

So, unfortunately this hasn't made any difference.

Did you tell Lightroom to write out the changes you made back to the files?  If you don't do that then the rating is only reflected in Lightroom's internal database.  You can force your changes to be written back to the files with one of the commands on the Metadata menu.

-Kirk

[pjjones]

No, I didn't tell it to write the changes back to the files, although surely Lightroom should be feeding that data off to Photoshop when you click on edit within Lightroom, and not Photoshop relying on the sidecar file (as usually Lightroom doesn't create sidecar files).

However it was worth trying, so I have just started again and followed steps 1-6 (as per the quoted reply), and then I right clicked on the thumbnail in Lightroom and clicked 'Metadata -> Save metadata to file' and then edited it in Photoshop, and it does exactly the same thing - no rating visible in Photoshop, and no rating applied when I hit save.

To verify that the rating got applied to the sidecar file I have just reopened PM, and sure enough, it is now showing that image as having a 3 star rating. 

I also went back to Lightroom and click on the thumbnail and clicked 'Metadata -> Read metadata from file' and then edited it, and the same thing - no rating.  (Didn't expect this to do anything different but worth trying).

Thanks
Paul

[Kirk Baker]

Paul,

No, I didn't tell it to write the changes back to the files, although surely Lightroom should be feeding that data off to Photoshop when you click on edit within Lightroom, and not Photoshop relying on the sidecar file (as usually Lightroom doesn't create sidecar files).

However it was worth trying, so I have just started again and followed steps 1-6 (as per the quoted reply), and then I right clicked on the thumbnail in Lightroom and clicked 'Metadata -> Save metadata to file' and then edited it in Photoshop, and it does exactly the same thing - no rating visible in Photoshop, and no rating applied when I hit save.

To verify that the rating got applied to the sidecar file I have just reopened PM, and sure enough, it is now showing that image as having a 3 star rating. 

I also went back to Lightroom and click on the thumbnail and clicked 'Metadata -> Read metadata from file' and then edited it, and the same thing - no rating.  (Didn't expect this to do anything different but worth trying).

I'd be surprised to see that if you don't have LR generate an XMP sidecar file and you edit it with Photoshop that it would see the rating you set in LR.

What I'd like to see from you is:

A RAW file ingested by PM along with the XMP sidecar file that you have since updated in LR after rating it.
A RAW file never touched by PM and its XMP sidecar file generated by LR.

Thanks,

-Kirk

[pjjones]

Hi Kirk

Thanks again for your reply.

Yes, Lightroom does feed the XMP data through to Photoshop, even if you don't have the sidecar files being created.  It must do it as it tells Photoshop to open the file, as Lightroom doesn't write a sidecar file (unless you have that option turned on - by default it is off), and it doesn't write it into the RAW file.  If you do the rating in Lightroom though, and then manually open the files with Photoshop, only the photo with the sidecar xmp shows any rating, but if you open them via Lightroom (ctrl-E) both ways show the rating in Photoshop.

Anyway, back to the issue.

I have uploaded two files to Dropbox for you to look at.  One injested with PM, along with the sidecar that has been updated after using Lightroom to rate the image.  The other injested using Lightroom and then rating it in LR and telling LR to write the sidecar file.

I will send the Dropbox link via personal message to you.

Thanks
Paul

[Kirk Baker]

Paul,

I downloaded your samples.  Both XMP sidecar files have an xmp:Rating="3" in them.

Your camera is embedding some XMP in the CR2 files:

<?xpacket begin='' id='W5M0MpCehiHzreSzNTczkc9d'?>
<x:xmpmeta xmlns:x="adobe:ns:meta/">
  <rdf:RDF xmlns:rdf="http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#">
    <rdf:Description rdf:about="" xmlns:xmp="http://ns.adobe.com/xap/1.0/">
      <xmp:Rating>0</xmp:Rating>
    </rdf:Description>
  </rdf:RDF>
</x:xmpmeta><?xpacket end='w'?>

It's an older-style XMP and its Rating is zero.  This may be causing some interference, but I don't know for sure.

Both of the XMP sidecars appear to be equally well-formed to me so I cannot explain why Photoshop would not see the rating on the PM-ingested image when launched from Lightroom.  What happens if you launch Photoshop from Photo Mechanic?  Or use Windows Explorer to send the PM-ingested photo to Photoshop?

-Kirk

[pjjones]

Hi Kirk

I've tried using PM (Image->Edit Photos) to open the files in Photoshop, and have also tried opening via Windows Explorer and opening via Adobe Bridge.  All give the same result - no rating recognized by Photoshop of the files injested using PM.

On the other hand, the photos imported from the CF card using Lightroom have the rating recognized by Photoshop using all 3 methods.

I have tried using Lightroom to add the rating to the files, I've tried using Bridge to add the rating, and Photo Mechanic to add the rating.  It all gives the same result - rating not recognized by Lightroom.

Is the embedded XMP rating (<xmp:Rating>0</xmp:Rating>) in both the LR and PM injested files?

Very strange...
Paul

[pjjones]

I've just used exiftool to view the embedded data from the two RAW files and they seem to have the identical embedded data (the types of data - obviously some of the values are different - focal length, time, etc).  This would make sense as Lightroom doesn't touch the RAW file, and I set Photo Mechanic to not alter the RAW as well.

[pjjones]

Have just tried a couple of other imports.

1. Injested using PM
2. Rated the image using Bridge (Bridge uses sidecar files to store all its file changes, so I thought I would try this instead of Lightroom to make sure it wasn't a LR specific problem)
3. Opened in Photoshop - result: Rating NOT visible in Photoshop file info.

1. Injested using PM
2. Deleted the PM generated XMP sidecar file
3. Rated the image using Bridge
4. Opened in Photoshop - result: Rating visible in Photoshop file info.

If there is no solution, then this will be the only way for us to deal with future imports, but I'm really hoping this is a bug in the XMP file processing somewhere...?