Author Topic: new trial  (Read 8384 times)

Offline VGER

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • Posts: 38
    • View Profile
new trial
« on: June 30, 2014, 01:33:38 AM »
Hello,

after hearing (reading) many successful user stories about Photo Mechanic I started a trial myself this weekend. But my usage experience was that awkward that I'm sure I must have missed an important concept or two:


Being self-taught instead of having properly learned the trade of photography, I tend to overshoot. I would like to use Photo Mechanic for a "first browse" through the shots, primarily weeding out the rejects. So far, I'm using Lightroom's "X" (reject) button to mark the crap shots, and when I'm through a folder, I batch-delete them using "remove rejected images" from the menu.

When I tried to do this in Photo Mechanic, I couldn't find an equivalent. The marking features I could find were stars, colors (both not useful in this case) and tag. There was some mention of "w" ("winner") and its opposite in preview, but it didn't seem to do anything.

So I employed the tag setting using the "+" key. (It's a good thing that there's more than the toggle "T".) But the choice of this key proved to be quite bad from a layout point: I want my right hand on the arrow keys for image selection (and the occasional grip of the mouse), and the left hand on the "reject" button. Best thing I could do here was to use the "+" next to the enter key, but that still was a lunge. Can those shortcuts be redefined to something on the left hand keyboard side, e.g. "X" like in Lightroom?

An alternative would be to a) display only untagged images (done), and b) enable "auto-advance after tagging". But the latter only seemed to work in preview, not in contact sheet. Is this as-designed?

There was also a speed issue here: Apparently, when you "tag" an image, something is done to the file (rewrite of the XMP?) Similarily, when you delete a file, the UI "waits" for the delete to be performed. On a local drive, there is no perceptable delay. But when you access a network drive, the delay is quite drastic and can take upwards of a second (!) per deletion. This is even slower than Lightroom.

Next, I couldn't get the preview window to full screen. The panes there could be removed, but not the toolbar and window frame. (I would also prefer the toolbar to be less colorful and more desktop-styled with captions below the icons, but that that of course is personal preference.)

Next, while an option allowed to keep the preview window in sync with the contact sheet (move selection in contact sheet and the image in preview changes as well), the same was not true the other way round: When the preview window was selected and a new image chosen using the arrow keys, the selection in contact sheet did not move.

Next, while in contact sheet, "Z" (zoom) had no effect. My expectation would have been that the preview window would zoom in, but that only works when the preview window is explicitly selected.


The sheer volume of these usability problems make me think that I just haven't grasped some basic principle here. There wouldn't be that many praises of PM if these all couldn't be worked around. Yet i couldn't find much in the documentation that would help me.

Maybe someone here could give me a few tips?

Regards

Offline Kirk Baker

  • Senior Software Engineer
  • Camera Bits Staff
  • Superhero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24730
    • View Profile
    • Camera Bits, Inc.
Re: new trial
« Reply #1 on: June 30, 2014, 07:22:13 AM »
after hearing (reading) many successful user stories about Photo Mechanic I started a trial myself this weekend. But my usage experience was that awkward that I'm sure I must have missed an important concept or two:

Being self-taught instead of having properly learned the trade of photography, I tend to overshoot. I would like to use Photo Mechanic for a "first browse" through the shots, primarily weeding out the rejects. So far, I'm using Lightroom's "X" (reject) button to mark the crap shots, and when I'm through a folder, I batch-delete them using "remove rejected images" from the menu.

When I tried to do this in Photo Mechanic, I couldn't find an equivalent. The marking features I could find were stars, colors (both not useful in this case) and tag. There was some mention of "w" ("winner") and its opposite in preview, but it didn't seem to do anything.

I'm not sure what you mean by the "winner and its opposite in preview"?  There are keys to add and dismiss photos from the selected set (W) and (D) and you could use that selected set to either delete your rejects or tag them all at once (or rate/color label them) for later winnowing.

So I employed the tag setting using the "+" key. (It's a good thing that there's more than the toggle "T".) But the choice of this key proved to be quite bad from a layout point: I want my right hand on the arrow keys for image selection (and the occasional grip of the mouse), and the left hand on the "reject" button. Best thing I could do here was to use the "+" next to the enter key, but that still was a lunge. Can those shortcuts be redefined to something on the left hand keyboard side, e.g. "X" like in Lightroom?

Hmm.  'T' for toggling the tag is on the left side of the keyboard and seems like it would meet your layout requirements.  If some image is untagged, pressing 'T' will tag it and if you have the auto-advance on, you wouldn't need to press the arrow keys to advance at all.  If some image is tagged and you don't want it to be tagged anymore, pressing 'T' will untag it and advance as well.  I'm not seeing the downside of using it?

An alternative would be to a) display only untagged images (done), and b) enable "auto-advance after tagging". But the latter only seemed to work in preview, not in contact sheet. Is this as-designed?

Yes.  You can tag and advance in the Contact sheet by pressing 'T' and using the arrow keys when a single item is selected.  And you can move in all four directions in the Contact Sheet, tagging the keepers (or as your rejects) as you go.

There was also a speed issue here: Apparently, when you "tag" an image, something is done to the file (rewrite of the XMP?) Similarily, when you delete a file, the UI "waits" for the delete to be performed. On a local drive, there is no perceptable delay. But when you access a network drive, the delay is quite drastic and can take upwards of a second (!) per deletion. This is even slower than Lightroom.

Yes, PM works in real-time with your images, no matter where they're stored.  There is no later 'metadata synchronization' that needs to be done so that other applications see your changes.  As for deleting on a network volume, there is no 'Trash' or 'Recycle Bin' on networked volumes and as such, deletion requires that the actual file would be deleted.  Lightroom should have the same issue if you told it to delete a file on a server.

Next, I couldn't get the preview window to full screen. The panes there could be removed, but not the toolbar and window frame. (I would also prefer the toolbar to be less colorful and more desktop-styled with captions below the icons, but that that of course is personal preference.)

True, there is no border-less full-screen mode to the Preview window.

Next, while an option allowed to keep the preview window in sync with the contact sheet (move selection in contact sheet and the image in preview changes as well), the same was not true the other way round: When the preview window was selected and a new image chosen using the arrow keys, the selection in contact sheet did not move.

If you have more than one image selected in the Contact Sheet, the "Synchronize single selection between Preview and Contact Sheet" won't take effect because you don't have a single image selected.  Otherwise, if you have that preference set and you have a single item selected, you should see it move around in the Contact Sheet while you move through your images in the Preview window.

Next, while in contact sheet, "Z" (zoom) had no effect. My expectation would have been that the preview window would zoom in, but that only works when the preview window is explicitly selected.

Pressing and holding the mouse button on an image with the zoom mode will use the area of the Contact Sheet not covered by the thumbnail as the zoom area and if you drag the mouse cursor around while the button is down, you can pan around the extents of the image.  The Preview window does not need to be open for the Contact Sheet zoom feature to work.

The sheer volume of these usability problems make me think that I just haven't grasped some basic principle here. There wouldn't be that many praises of PM if these all couldn't be worked around. Yet i couldn't find much in the documentation that would help me.

Here is the full documentation that is up-to-date:

http://wiki.camerabits.com/en/index.php?title=User_Manual_Flat_View

-Kirk

Offline Mick O (Camera Bits)

  • Camera Bits Staff
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 524
    • View Profile
    • Camera Bits
Re: new trial
« Reply #2 on: June 30, 2014, 09:25:15 AM »
So I employed the tag setting using the "+" key. (It's a good thing that there's more than the toggle "T".) But the choice of this key proved to be quite bad from a layout point: I want my right hand on the arrow keys for image selection (and the occasional grip of the mouse), and the left hand on the "reject" button. Best thing I could do here was to use the "+" next to the enter key, but that still was a lunge. Can those shortcuts be redefined to something on the left hand keyboard side, e.g. "X" like in Lightroom?

I'll share my own method for speed-culling. Maybe it helps you or not

1: I change the number keys to add star ratings. (Prefs > Accessibility)
2: I set Photo Mechanic to Advance to the next photo whenever the rating changes.  (Prefs > Preview)
3: I open the first image a Preview window

From there I go to town with my left hand on 1234, and my right hand on arrow keys.

For me
1 = reject
2 = probable reject unless an emergency
3 = good
4 = probable winner

I just speed through hitting numbers.  If I am suddenly unsure, I can arrow-key back to what I just rated to double check.    Then, when I reach the end, ESC closes the preview window (right near the 1234, same hand).

Cmd-Opt-1 instantly selects all 1-star rated photos and Cmd-Delete trashes them.

I can review all the 2-star images by Opt-clicking the 2 on the Star Rating Widget, which will show ONLY the 2-star images in the sheet. From there if I want to trash them  Cmd-a selects them all and Cmd-del gets rid of those.

I know you said ratings were not useful for you, but I'm not sure why. Perhaps this can help. For me, it has become incredibly fast.

Good luck!

-Mick



Mick O
Camera Bits

Offline VGER

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • Posts: 38
    • View Profile
Re: new trial
« Reply #3 on: July 01, 2014, 02:03:59 AM »
I know you said ratings were not useful for you, but I'm not sure why.
I had intended to use them in a second step, when choosing the "good ones" from the "bad ones", besides the downright rejects. My feeling says that a reject does not deserve even a single star, so it would not come natural to me to use stars for accept/reject.

Quote
Perhaps this can help. For me, it has become incredibly fast.
Yes indeed, this combinations looks very good. I'm going to try that out next chance I get, thank you!

Regards

Offline VGER

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • Posts: 38
    • View Profile
Re: new trial
« Reply #4 on: July 01, 2014, 03:06:36 AM »
I'm not sure what you mean by the "winner and its opposite in preview"?
I'm referring to the "+"/"-" icons on the toolbar, their keyboard shortcuts being "w"/"d". I seem to remember from documentation that "w" stands for "winner".

Quote
There are keys to add and dismiss photos from the selected set (W) and (D) and you could use that selected set to either delete your rejects or tag them all at once (or rate/color label them) for later winnowing.
Is the "selected set" the selection I can make in the contact sheet with mousclick (single image), then add with ctrl-click (add one more image) and shift-Click (add range of images)?

If so, then I can't use it for this. I definitly need something "persistent", something that doesn't vanish if I accidently select another image using the mouse.

Quote
Hmm.  'T' for toggling the tag is on the left side of the keyboard and seems like it would meet your layout requirements.
No in two ways:

a) It's in the middle of the keyboard. I have to consciously "aim" for it to hit it. The "x" key for example is about the rim of the keyboard where I can "feel" it next to the big keys like space and ALT, and I can rest my other fingers on the table instead of having to hold the hand suspended over the keyboard like I had to do with "t". When typing, there's no problem, but when going through 900 images it's not comfortable not being able to rest your hand on something.

b) I definitly want the delta-plus (only activate, do not deactivate) function key. If I'm not sure I hit the key correctly, I hit it again. If the first hit actually did take, I'm would disable the tag again if using the toggle key.

... yes, I'm aware that these differences are subtle. I understand if someone calls this nitpicking. But PM is explicitly about speed, and when I'm uncomfortable in the handling it's not going to be speedy.

Quote
Yes.  You can tag and advance in the Contact sheet by pressing 'T' and using the arrow keys when a single item is selected.  And you can move in all four directions in the Contact Sheet, tagging the keepers (or as your rejects) as you go.
But there is no auto-advance possible as there is in preview when performing the same action? You always need to press one arrow key after tag to select the next image?

Quote
As for deleting on a network volume, there is no 'Trash' or 'Recycle Bin' on networked volumes and as such, deletion requires that the actual file would be deleted. Lightroom should have the same issue if you told it to delete a file on a server.
No, not exactly: Lightroom first removes the file from its catalog. This is fast because the catalog is always stored locally. After that, you don't see it any more in library view and you don't even know that in the background Lightroom is still busy actually deleting the file.

PM doesn't have this background-mechanism. Probably, this is by design and can't be changed: PM always shows the directory contents straight. If a file is still there at this very moment, it's shown, period. There is no "view layer" like Lightrooms catalog affords.

But in effect it means I can't use DEL as a method of weeding out rejects either. (Which wouldn't have been my first choice anyway, so not a big deal.)

In any case, the UI should allow other action while waiting for the deletion to be confirmed (select next file etc.) I can't recall exactly if this already is the case or not.

Quote
True, there is no border-less full-screen mode to the Preview window.
But this is a very big deal. For me, the toolbar not only is waisted space, but highly distracting (a good portion of it certainly due to its unusal design and coloring.)

Could that capability be added? This is just about a make-or-break issue to me.

Quote
Otherwise, if you have that preference set and you have a single item selected, you should see it move around in the Contact Sheet while you move through your images in the Preview window.
Thanks, I will have to try that one again.

Quote
Quote
while in contact sheet, "Z" (zoom) had no effect. My expectation would have been that the preview window would zoom in, but that only works when the preview window is explicitly selected.
Pressing and holding the mouse button on an image with the zoom mode [...]
Ok, but I'm not usually at the mouse in this case. I need both hands on the keyboard to tag and advance. So if there already is a key for zooming, shouldn't it work for the preview window even if it isn't the currently selected window at the time?

Regards

Offline Kirk Baker

  • Senior Software Engineer
  • Camera Bits Staff
  • Superhero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 24730
    • View Profile
    • Camera Bits, Inc.
Re: new trial
« Reply #5 on: July 01, 2014, 06:42:27 AM »
Quote
True, there is no border-less full-screen mode to the Preview window.
But this is a very big deal. For me, the toolbar not only is waisted space, but highly distracting (a good portion of it certainly due to its unusal design and coloring.)

Could that capability be added? This is just about a make-or-break issue to me.

Not in the near term (before your trial period expires), no.

Quote
Quote
while in contact sheet, "Z" (zoom) had no effect. My expectation would have been that the preview window would zoom in, but that only works when the preview window is explicitly selected.
Pressing and holding the mouse button on an image with the zoom mode [...]
Ok, but I'm not usually at the mouse in this case. I need both hands on the keyboard to tag and advance. So if there already is a key for zooming, shouldn't it work for the preview window even if it isn't the currently selected window at the time?

If you're in the Preview window (when it has focus), pressing Z will turn zoom on if it is off and off if it is on.  Command-clicking (Mac) or Ctrl-Clicking (Windows) on the area of interest on the image is usually more satisfying since it zooms in to that spot, centered on it.

The Contact Sheet zoom is independent of the Preview's zoom.

-Kirk

Offline VGER

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • Posts: 38
    • View Profile
Re: new trial
« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2014, 07:50:14 AM »
Quote
True, there is no border-less full-screen mode to the Preview window.
Could that capability be added? This is just about a make-or-break issue to me.
Not in the near term (before your trial period expires), no.
Can a trial be "paused"?

Regards

Offline Mick O (Camera Bits)

  • Camera Bits Staff
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 524
    • View Profile
    • Camera Bits
Re: new trial
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2014, 09:41:45 AM »
Can a trial be "paused"?
Regards

Unfortunately a trial can not be paused. Sorry about that.  We appreciate you checking us out though. It was valuable feedback for future development. 

Cheers,

-Mick
Mick O
Camera Bits