Author Topic: Which file to combine?  (Read 3111 times)

Offline mklass

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Which file to combine?
« on: October 07, 2014, 06:33:53 AM »
I am running PM 5.0 built 15800 in OSX 10.9.

I have recently switched from editing NEFs (since CNX-2's demise) and am now using either LR or PS CC to do my editing. I am opening the NEF then saving the edits to a DNG. That now becomes my base raw file from which I will create a corresponding JPG. I generally keep all three files (NEF, DNG and JPG) in the same folder and all have the same filenamebase. This file system works for me as a way to track changes and have the originals if and when I should need them. (Sometimes there might also be a PSD or TIF in the mix, depending on what I am doing, but that is not relevant to this question.)

When I create the DNG, then the JPG, and am using the Combined RAW+JPG feature of PM, for some images the JPG will combine with the DNG and and for other images it may combine with the NEF. Perhaps this has something to do with the order in which I create the files, but I can't seem to figure it out.

How does PM decide which to combine with?

How can I be sure that it is always with the DNG (as long as there is one)?
« Last Edit: October 07, 2014, 06:37:51 AM by mklass »

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Which file to combine?
« Reply #1 on: October 07, 2014, 07:44:23 AM »
Mick,

I am running PM 5.0 built 15800 in OSX 10.9.

I have recently switched from editing NEFs (since CNX-2's demise) and am now using either LR or PS CC to do my editing. I am opening the NEF then saving the edits to a DNG. That now becomes my base raw file from which I will create a corresponding JPG. I generally keep all three files (NEF, DNG and JPG) in the same folder and all have the same filenamebase. This file system works for me as a way to track changes and have the originals if and when I should need them. (Sometimes there might also be a PSD or TIF in the mix, depending on what I am doing, but that is not relevant to this question.)

When I create the DNG, then the JPG, and am using the Combined RAW+JPG feature of PM, for some images the JPG will combine with the DNG and and for other images it may combine with the NEF. Perhaps this has something to do with the order in which I create the files, but I can't seem to figure it out.

How does PM decide which to combine with?

It would likely matter what order the items exist in the directory list.

How can I be sure that it is always with the DNG (as long as there is one)?

The method that PM uses to pair RAWs and JPEGs is not based on a hierarchy of file types.  It sees a JPEG and it sees a RAW.  It then pairs them.  If it sees a DNG that matches the JPEG before it sees a NEF that matches the JPEG then it pairs the DNG and the JPEG together.  The opposite would also be true.

I suppose we could give DNGs priority but I'm not certain all users would want it to work that way.  We'll have to think about this further.

-Kirk

Offline Hayo Baan

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Re: Which file to combine?
« Reply #2 on: October 07, 2014, 07:52:36 AM »
The method that PM uses to pair RAWs and JPEGs is not based on a hierarchy of file types.  It sees a JPEG and it sees a RAW.  It then pairs them.  If it sees a DNG that matches the JPEG before it sees a NEF that matches the JPEG then it pairs the DNG and the JPEG together.  The opposite would also be true.

I suppose we could give DNGs priority but I'm not certain all users would want it to work that way.  We'll have to think about this further.

A long standing request of mine is to be able to collapse all files with the same base name together as one and then to be able to specify which one (e.g., in order of appearance tiff, jpg, DNG, nef, cr2, ...) should be used for the preview and when opening/editing. I'm sure this shouldn't be too hard to implement and I don't think this particular approach would breach the "stacking" patent either. So perhaps it can be done? Please  ::)
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Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Which file to combine?
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2014, 10:22:46 AM »
Hayo,

The method that PM uses to pair RAWs and JPEGs is not based on a hierarchy of file types.  It sees a JPEG and it sees a RAW.  It then pairs them.  If it sees a DNG that matches the JPEG before it sees a NEF that matches the JPEG then it pairs the DNG and the JPEG together.  The opposite would also be true.

I suppose we could give DNGs priority but I'm not certain all users would want it to work that way.  We'll have to think about this further.

A long standing request of mine is to be able to collapse all files with the same base name together as one and then to be able to specify which one (e.g., in order of appearance tiff, jpg, DNG, nef, cr2, ...) should be used for the preview and when opening/editing. I'm sure this shouldn't be too hard to implement and I don't think this particular approach would breach the "stacking" patent either. So perhaps it can be done? Please  ::)

I am aware of your request. ;)

So this priority order, it would be global, right?  (In other words, one wouldn't be able to click on a group and change the preference dynamically.)

-Kirk

Offline Hayo Baan

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Re: Which file to combine?
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2014, 10:51:09 AM »
Hayo,

The method that PM uses to pair RAWs and JPEGs is not based on a hierarchy of file types.  It sees a JPEG and it sees a RAW.  It then pairs them.  If it sees a DNG that matches the JPEG before it sees a NEF that matches the JPEG then it pairs the DNG and the JPEG together.  The opposite would also be true.

I suppose we could give DNGs priority but I'm not certain all users would want it to work that way.  We'll have to think about this further.

A long standing request of mine is to be able to collapse all files with the same base name together as one and then to be able to specify which one (e.g., in order of appearance tiff, jpg, DNG, nef, cr2, ...) should be used for the preview and when opening/editing. I'm sure this shouldn't be too hard to implement and I don't think this particular approach would breach the "stacking" patent either. So perhaps it can be done? Please  ::)

I am aware of your request. ;)

So this priority order, it would be global, right?  (In other words, one wouldn't be able to click on a group and change the preference dynamically.)

Global behaviour should suffice I think, I mean if one wants to open another file, one could simply choose to unjoin the files again :)
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Offline mklass

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Re: Which file to combine?
« Reply #5 on: October 07, 2014, 10:56:23 AM »
Although using the shift or option key is a handy waybto
Open the JPG, instead of the base raw file.


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Offline mklass

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Re: Which file to combine?
« Reply #6 on: October 07, 2014, 11:02:22 AM »
I'd be happy if there were just a global option to use the DNG or PSD file as the "base" file instead of the native raw format file. If there is no DNG or PSD present, PM would use the native raw file.


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Offline Luiz Muzzi

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Re: Which file to combine?
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2014, 05:17:16 PM »
The method that PM uses to pair RAWs and JPEGs is not based on a hierarchy of file types.  It sees a JPEG and it sees a RAW.  It then pairs them.  If it sees a DNG that matches the JPEG before it sees a NEF that matches the JPEG then it pairs the DNG and the JPEG together.  The opposite would also be true.

I suppose we could give DNGs priority but I'm not certain all users would want it to work that way.  We'll have to think about this further.

A long standing request of mine is to be able to collapse all files with the same base name together as one and then to be able to specify which one (e.g., in order of appearance tiff, jpg, DNG, nef, cr2, ...) should be used for the preview and when opening/editing. I'm sure this shouldn't be too hard to implement and I don't think this particular approach would breach the "stacking" patent either. So perhaps it can be done? Please  ::)

Hi, Kirk
Sorry to intrude, but I would like to add another vote for this long standing request of Hayo's. I confess that sometimes I even refrain from creating a DNG or Tiff file (besides the canon raw) because I know it would not be paired with the jpeg and would not appear as a single image in the contact sheet.
I would consider it as a global option that would apply to all images. I would like to maintain the ability to change between raw and jpeg, with the option key (you would choose which file to use - raw or tiff or dng or psd - in PM's menu).
Regards,

-Luiz Muzzi
« Last Edit: October 08, 2014, 05:19:06 PM by Luiz Muzzi »

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Which file to combine?
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2014, 05:38:51 PM »
Being able to change what image is the representative image in a stack on a stack-by-stack basis begins to run afoul of one of Apple's patents:

http://www.google.com/patents/US8456488

This patent is the primary reason we haven't implemented the feature.  The patent was granted on 2005/01/03.  We may have implemented RAW+JPEG prior to that date, but while it combines two images as a single item, it doesn't allow one to pick which image is the representative image.  Extending it to include more images with the same base name will likely not raise the ire of Apple Inc.'s patent attorneys.  Patents filed after 1995 expire in twenty (20) years!

-Kirk

Offline Hayo Baan

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Re: Which file to combine?
« Reply #9 on: October 09, 2014, 12:20:59 AM »
I have not studied the precise span of the patent, but to me it seems that as long as you treat the files with the same base name as "one" image (in effect hiding/filtering the others), you do not have a conflict with the patent. This means that most of my request should be implementable, don't you think? Just as long as you do not built in a solution to be able to choose the representative image on an individual basis.
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Offline Luiz Muzzi

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Re: Which file to combine?
« Reply #10 on: October 09, 2014, 04:11:02 AM »
Being able to change what image is the representative image in a stack on a stack-by-stack basis begins to run afoul of one of Apple's patents:

http://www.google.com/patents/US8456488

This patent is the primary reason we haven't implemented the feature.  The patent was granted on 2005/01/03.  We may have implemented RAW+JPEG prior to that date, but while it combines two images as a single item, it doesn't allow one to pick which image is the representative image.  Extending it to include more images with the same base name will likely not raise the ire of Apple Inc.'s patent attorneys.  Patents filed after 1995 expire in twenty (20) years!

-Kirk

OK. I see what you mean.
Extending it to include more images with the same base name would be great!
Regards,

-Luiz Muzzi

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Which file to combine?
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2014, 06:52:44 AM »
I have not studied the precise span of the patent, but to me it seems that as long as you treat the files with the same base name as "one" image (in effect hiding/filtering the others), you do not have a conflict with the patent. This means that most of my request should be implementable, don't you think? Just as long as you do not built in a solution to be able to choose the representative image on an individual basis.

Right.  As long as the choice of the representative image is global, and one can't split them apart individually (while keeping all others grouped) I think it wouldn't run afoul of the patent, and would simply be an extension of what we already offer (and I believe our RAW+JPEG implementation existed before the patent--we will have to check--it is considered 'prior art').

-Kirk