Author Topic: Structured Keywording and Lightroom Hierarchy  (Read 9080 times)

Offline swldstn

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Structured Keywording and Lightroom Hierarchy
« on: November 09, 2014, 10:17:34 AM »
I'm able to create a single structured keyword file I can load into Photo Mechanic, Lightroom and even Bridge.
Problem is if I assign a keyword in Photo Mechanic I get

Country, State, Town     when looking at in in Lightroom

In Lightroom if I click on the same hierachical keyword I get
Country | State | Town  or Town < State < Country depending on how I view it.

If I open a photo in Photo Mechanic keyworded in Lightroom I get
Country, State, Town, Country | State | Town

I'm using XMP files so I see that there are two sets of keyword fields in it. One for Lightroom and another.

Is there anyway to get Photo Mechanic to keyword a file and generate a Lightroom hierarchical keyword?

Steve


Offline swldstn

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Re: Structured Keywording and Lightroom Hierarchy
« Reply #1 on: November 09, 2014, 10:22:52 AM »
Also notice now that when I go back into Lightroom my keyword browser has the State, Country and Town a lone keywords not in the hierarchical list.

Can Photo Mechanic create a true hierarchical keyword properly recognized by Lightroom?

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Structured Keywording and Lightroom Hierarchy
« Reply #2 on: November 09, 2014, 10:57:15 AM »
Also notice now that when I go back into Lightroom my keyword browser has the State, Country and Town a lone keywords not in the hierarchical list.

Can Photo Mechanic create a true hierarchical keyword properly recognized by Lightroom?

It does.  It just happens to take each keyword in the path and write those to the non-hierarchical keywords list as well.

-Kirk

Offline swldstn

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Re: Structured Keywording and Lightroom Hierarchy
« Reply #3 on: November 09, 2014, 03:17:27 PM »
Is there anyway to prevent the creation of non-hierarchical ones as well. You end up with so many additional keywords in Lightroom that are not in any list that its overwhelming and makes the keyword database unusable IMO.

Offline swldstn

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Re: Structured Keywording and Lightroom Hierarchy
« Reply #4 on: November 09, 2014, 03:54:09 PM »
Also is there away to get Photo Mechanic to show the keyword you enter through Structured Keywording to be Country | State | Town format? I really don't understand the part of the menues that mention path and separator. I'm probably not using it correctly.

Steve

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Structured Keywording and Lightroom Hierarchy
« Reply #5 on: November 09, 2014, 08:36:48 PM »
Steve,

Is there anyway to prevent the creation of non-hierarchical ones as well. You end up with so many additional keywords in Lightroom that are not in any list that its overwhelming and makes the keyword database unusable IMO.

http://wiki.camerabits.com/en/index.php?title=User_Manual_Flat_View#IPTC.2FXMP_Preferences

Set the "When updating XMP, add Structured Keywords to the hierarchical keywords field only.

Also is there away to get Photo Mechanic to show the keyword you enter through Structured Keywording to be Country | State | Town format? I really don't understand the part of the menues that mention path and separator. I'm probably not using it correctly.

They're entered in the same order as they appear in the hierarchy.  If you want a different hierarchy, create it in the order you'd like to see it.

-Kirk

Offline swldstn

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Re: Structured Keywording and Lightroom Hierarchy
« Reply #6 on: November 12, 2014, 09:12:44 AM »
Still have issues. I set the option on "When updating XMP, add Structured Keywords to the hierarchical keywords field only" and also set the separator on in the structured keywording.

If I enter the keywords in Lightroom the XMP contains.
<lr:hierarchicalSubject>
    <rdf:Bag>
     <rdf:li>01  Camara|Sony|ICLE-A7R</rdf:li>
     <rdf:li>13  WORLD REGIONS &amp; COUNTRIES|North America|United States of America|Maine|Scarborough</rdf:li>
    </rdf:Bag>
</lr:hierarchicalSubject>

These are seen by Photo Mechanic without any issue.

If I now clear them and re-enter them in Photo Mechanic the top level is not included so I get this in the XMP

If I do the same in Photo Mechanic the XMP file contains
<lr:hierarchicalSubject>
    <rdf:Bag>
     <rdf:li>North America|United States of America|Maine|Scarborough</rdf:li>
     <rdf:li>Sony|ICLE-A7R</rdf:li>
    </rdf:Bag>
   </lr:hierarchicalSubject>

When I go back to lightroom and ask it to "Scan for Meta Data Updates" the keywords disappear.

I've loaded the exact same file into structured keyword file into both Lightroom and Photo Mechanic.
Is lightroom not seeing them because they hierarchical Subject doesn't match its structured keywords any more?
Why is the top level not included in Photo Mechanic. In my keyword file the top level is actually [01  Camera]. Is that what's preventing it from putting it into the file?

Steve

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Structured Keywording and Lightroom Hierarchy
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2014, 10:13:27 AM »
Steve,

If you look at the Structured Keywords panel, you'll see that items that are written with brackets around them are treated as a "Category" item and are never part of the path.  When you select an item that isn't a category, notice that the path does not contain any of the Category items.  This is very intentional.

I don't think LR is fully compatible with our Structured Keywords data files.  If you really want "01 Camera" to show up in your path, you can right-click on the "01 Camera" item and change its type to "Keyword".

-Kirk

Offline swldstn

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Re: Structured Keywording and Lightroom Hierarchy
« Reply #8 on: November 12, 2014, 12:58:49 PM »
Kirk,

Thanks for explaining about the "Categories" in the hierarchy vs. Keywords. I tried out switching one back and forth and see how it changes the output in the XMP. Although there is language in Lightroom documentation and online about categories I think to them its just a concept of the top level but not implemented with actual structure in their keyword file.

I will have to do some experimenting to ensure structured keywords get into Lightroom.

Steve

Steve,

If you look at the Structured Keywords panel, you'll see that items that are written with brackets around them are treated as a "Category" item and are never part of the path.  When you select an item that isn't a category, notice that the path does not contain any of the Category items.  This is very intentional.

I don't think LR is fully compatible with our Structured Keywords data files.  If you really want "01 Camera" to show up in your path, you can right-click on the "01 Camera" item and change its type to "Keyword".

-Kirk

Offline swldstn

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Re: Structured Keywording and Lightroom Hierarchy
« Reply #9 on: November 12, 2014, 03:41:06 PM »
Ok,

I've added a structured keyword as a path in Photo Mechanic and its in the hierarchical section as I showed before.
I also know that Lightroom knows the metafile data has changed since it flags it since it marks the thumb nail as described in
http://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom/help/advanced-metadata-actions.html

I go through the steps of Metadata > Read Metadata from File but nothing loads.

At this point I don't know who is to blame. PM for not writing the data properly or Lightroom for not reading the xmp file properly or hierarchical is not supported. I don't think its Lightroom since if I add the keywords in Bridge it works fine.

The portion of the xmp file looks like this in after Bridge has touched it.

<lr:hierarchicalSubject>
    <rdf:Bag>
     <rdf:li>13  WORLD REGIONS &amp; COUNTRIES|North America|United States of America|Massachusetts|Boston</rdf:li>
    </rdf:Bag>
  </lr:hierarchicalSubject>

Not sure what to do next.

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Structured Keywording and Lightroom Hierarchy
« Reply #10 on: November 12, 2014, 04:10:07 PM »
Ok,

I've added a structured keyword as a path in Photo Mechanic and its in the hierarchical section as I showed before.
I also know that Lightroom knows the metafile data has changed since it flags it since it marks the thumb nail as described in
http://helpx.adobe.com/lightroom/help/advanced-metadata-actions.html

I go through the steps of Metadata > Read Metadata from File but nothing loads.

At this point I don't know who is to blame. PM for not writing the data properly or Lightroom for not reading the xmp file properly or hierarchical is not supported. I don't think its Lightroom since if I add the keywords in Bridge it works fine.

The portion of the xmp file looks like this in after Bridge has touched it.

<lr:hierarchicalSubject>
    <rdf:Bag>
     <rdf:li>13  WORLD REGIONS &amp; COUNTRIES|North America|United States of America|Massachusetts|Boston</rdf:li>
    </rdf:Bag>
  </lr:hierarchicalSubject>

Not sure what to do next.

And what does the XMP look like when you add a path in PM?

-Kirk

Offline swldstn

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Re: Structured Keywording and Lightroom Hierarchy
« Reply #11 on: November 12, 2014, 06:05:17 PM »
For the life of me I'm having a hard time telling the difference in the hierarchicalSubject section. I think the difference may be somewhere else so I've attached the two files. One from bridge and one from photo mechanic (pm). Hope this helps.

Steve

[attachment deleted by admin]

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: Structured Keywording and Lightroom Hierarchy
« Reply #12 on: November 12, 2014, 08:23:12 PM »
Steve,

For the life of me I'm having a hard time telling the difference in the hierarchicalSubject section. I think the difference may be somewhere else so I've attached the two files. One from bridge and one from photo mechanic (pm). Hope this helps.

The Bridge data:

   <lr:hierarchicalSubject>
    <rdf:Bag>
     <rdf:li>13  WORLD REGIONS &amp; COUNTRIES|North America|United States of America|Maine|Scarborough</rdf:li>
    </rdf:Bag>
   </lr:hierarchicalSubject>

The Photo Mechanic data:

   <lr:hierarchicalSubject>
    <rdf:Bag>
     <rdf:li>13  WORLD REGIONS &amp; COUNTRIES|North America|United States of America|Maine|Scarborough</rdf:li>
    </rdf:Bag>
   </lr:hierarchicalSubject>

They look absolutely identical to me.  So what is the current problem?

-Kirk

Offline swldstn

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Re: Structured Keywording and Lightroom Hierarchy
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2014, 03:32:25 AM »
Agreed that the actual hierarchicalSubject are identical. From that I reason that LR is using something else in the .xmp file to decide to load or not load the data. The bridge version of the file is larger and has more info. I'm going to disect it further.

Steve

Offline swldstn

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Re: Structured Keywording and Lightroom Hierarchy
« Reply #14 on: November 14, 2014, 03:44:03 PM »
To anyone. Have you been able to load hierarchical keywords, entered using the Structural Keyword pad, into Lightroom so the key words are hierarchical in Lightroom? I'm unable to get it to work.