Author Topic: PM 5 Catalogue release date?  (Read 47315 times)

Offline tdiaz

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Re: PM 5 Catalogue release date?
« Reply #45 on: February 24, 2014, 08:29:17 AM »
On 8-March, it will have been six years since it was brought up in this very forum.

In six years there's been 5 major OS releases, three major architecture changes, and as many primary development system releases.

In the six years I've tried a few other options, most have sucked right out of the gate, and the current being Aperture which is just long in the tooth. I still don't trust it, even using a referenced library.

Offline Franz Dur

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Re: PM 5 Catalogue release date?
« Reply #46 on: February 26, 2014, 06:32:48 AM »
I think most people do not realize how complex a cataloging software can be. Especially the handling of metadata, in image file or in sidecars, with proprietary tags like the ones Adobe uses and modifies at will, data field overflow, legacy iptc and xmp/iptc, MWG compliance or not etc.. And of course all the different raw formats. Must be a nightmare.

Almost 8 years ago I bought a cataloger. There was already some talk about the next version, year after year!! It is still not on the market (probably soon now...).

One has to be patient. In the meanwhile there are alternatives. People may shy away of using one of these because of fear of loosing all the time invested in cataloging their images, but certainly (?) PM will offer +/- automated ways to transfer metadata + comments to its new product. When the PM catalog hits the market I will try it out and compare to what I have now.

Francis

Offline Hydester

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Re: PM 5 Catalogue release date?
« Reply #47 on: February 26, 2014, 09:16:59 AM »
To be honest, I LOVE PM, but having had my fingers burnt by software made by companies who ultimately don't keep up with OS updates or get sold (iView Media Pro, for example) , I am very reluctant to wed my catalogues to a relatively minor player . No offence to Camera Bits, but if you spend a lifetime building a catalogue, it would be disastrous if (say) Apple made a step change to the OS which was uneconomic for CB to adapt to.

Any other thoughts

Offline tdiaz

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Re: PM 5 Catalogue release date?
« Reply #48 on: February 26, 2014, 09:44:39 AM »
The posts mentioning "patience" .. are laughable from certain angles.

Whole operating systems, whole computer platforms, the whole photography industry..  have been created, has changed, in much less time.

If metadata is truly this much hassle, then there is surely something wrong.

Feature Creep will Kill you.

Offline Luiz Muzzi

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Re: PM 5 Catalogue release date?
« Reply #49 on: February 26, 2014, 09:58:43 AM »
I think most people do not realize how complex a cataloging software can be. Especially the handling of metadata, in image file or in sidecars, with proprietary tags like the ones Adobe uses and modifies at will, data field overflow, legacy iptc and xmp/iptc, MWG compliance or not etc.. And of course all the different raw formats. Must be a nightmare.

Almost 8 years ago I bought a cataloger. There was already some talk about the next version, year after year!! It is still not on the market (probably soon now...).

One has to be patient. In the meanwhile there are alternatives. People may shy away of using one of these because of fear of loosing all the time invested in cataloging their images, but certainly (?) PM will offer +/- automated ways to transfer metadata + comments to its new product. When the PM catalog hits the market I will try it out and compare to what I have now.

Francis

Hi,
I completely agree with Francis.
And more, I would rather wait to see all my metadata transferred and duly catalogued by PM than risk using other software. After all, that is the software I have used to apply them all in the first place.
Regards,

-Luiz Muzzi

Online Mick O (Camera Bits)

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Re: PM 5 Catalogue release date?
« Reply #50 on: February 26, 2014, 10:36:13 AM »
No offence to Camera Bits, but if you spend a lifetime building a catalogue, it would be disastrous if (say) Apple made a step change to the OS which was uneconomic for CB to adapt to.

Any other thoughts

You're right that nothing is ever certain. That's life as we know it.  But, Camera Bits has been keeping up with OS and associated software changes for 15+ years (Apple, MS,  Adobe et al.), always being committed to interoperability and global standards. We've always worked with existing formats and standards (IPTC, XMP, etc) without locking anyone into proprietary formats.  And being a small company, we can often respond to changes faster than some larger ones. Certainly you'll have to make your choices on what you believe will benefit your business and what will preserve your creative lifeblood, but what other criteria would you base your trust decision on? 

And, while I absolutely can't comment on specific product development, I can say that feature creep has not affected development of new products at Camera Bits. We're making sure our products are responsive to an evolving photography market that's going through a lot of changes recently, as I'm sure we've all noticed. We're just trying to get it right.

Thanks for these discussions! We're always listening to your feedback and discussing these topics internally, trying to do right by the people who trust us.

Cheers,

-Mick



Mick O
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Offline retief

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Re: PM 5 Catalogue release date?
« Reply #51 on: February 26, 2014, 12:14:40 PM »
I think most people do not realize how complex a cataloging software can be. Especially the handling of metadata, in image file or in sidecars, with proprietary tags like the ones Adobe uses and modifies at will, data field overflow, legacy iptc and xmp/iptc, MWG compliance or not etc.. And of course all the different raw formats. Must be a nightmare.

Francis

Having been a Development Manager for one of the largest, now owned by IBM, makers of document and image cataloging software around, I do know how complex an issue this is, and I can tell you that we all would have been out of jobs if it took us 6 years for a release.  I have used several of the current, and past, catalog solutions and every one of them handles all of the standard IPTC/XMP bits very nicely.  Even LR does a good job of managing what is tagged in the files.  In all cases, had these companies taking 6 years to release at least a Beta version, they would simply be out of business.  CameraBits has the advantage of a very solid product in PM.

The problem is that once you invest in a DAM solution, the catalog part, it is a real pain to re-index thousands of images into yet another solution.  This is the situation I find myself in now, having waited the last couple of years for the PM5 Catalog solution I am now way behind on cataloging, so I need to start fresh.

The good news is that none of the metadata is gone, as it is right where it belongs, either with or in the file.

I am not sure whether to laugh, scream or cry, but I do wish the folks at Camera Bits would be more transparent with what is going on in this area.

I don't think that OS changes should be of any concern, as they have nothing to do with the bits and pieces of the catalog.  Of far more importance is the underlying Database technology, and CameraBits is doing the right thing here by working to a standard, not some one-off light-weight DB solution.  If an OS or system change causes an issue that is more a concern with the software itself.

And remember, the catalog should only be storing your meta-data and file locations for search, not the images themselves.  So even if the entire catalog becomes corrupt, you have not lost anything but the ability to quickly search.

The reason it would be so nice to have a solution from CameraBits is that one would hope it was a more seamless operation.  As it sits now, I do all my tagging and such in PM and then I go to a catalog system to tell it what to now catalog, an extra step I would rather not have.

Offline retief

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Re: PM 5 Catalogue release date?
« Reply #52 on: February 26, 2014, 12:20:34 PM »
And, while I absolutely can't comment on specific product development, I can say that feature creep has not affected development of new products at Camera Bits. We're making sure our products are responsive to an evolving photography market that's going through a lot of changes recently, as I'm sure we've all noticed. We're just trying to get it right.


MickO, with all due respect and backed by over 40 years of Enterprise level software development, your statement is rather contradictory.  By "making sure products are responsive", you are stating that you are evolving, therefore feature changing.  If this is the case, no wonder we have not even seen a Beta.  Cataloging has a very stable, and standard, set of needs, and has for quite a long time.  The rest is bells and whistle, UI and such. 

Let me ask a question.  Would we even have Photo Mechanic if the development was done as you describe?  PM has come a LONG way from the beginning, but only because you actually had a beginning.

As I have stated in emails and phone calls the past few years, I am always happy, and willing, to discuss and help where I can.  The response, to date, has not been encouraging.

Offline tdiaz

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Re: PM 5 Catalogue release date?
« Reply #53 on: February 26, 2014, 12:47:59 PM »
The problem is that once you invest in a DAM solution, the catalog part, it is a real pain to re-index thousands of images into yet another solution.  This is the situation I find myself in now, having waited the last couple of years for the PM5 Catalog solution I am now way behind on cataloging, so I need to start fresh.
This. Right. Here. A few years back I went full bore on images going back to the QuickTake 100 era. Laughable, but it is what it is. I wanted consistency for the day that some cataloging option would come along and -not- suck, totally.  PMC has been leading that baited promise ..

The good news is that none of the metadata is gone, as it is right where it belongs, either with or in the file.
With the added benefit that since I did a lot of work with EXIFTool, I have all the meta data along side images too, as a backup, if you will. I could re-import, set dates, etc., with some scripting, and not miss a thing.

I am not sure whether to laugh, scream or cry, but I do wish the folks at Camera Bits would be more transparent with what is going on in this area.
With Six Years of admitted development, you certainly would think there would at least be some teasing screen shots, some function/feature lists, something.  With how many of these trade shows having bits posted in this very forum alluding to "stop by our booth" .. "It's coming in just a few weeks", etc. 

And, while I absolutely can't comment on specific product development..
Then maybe someone who actually can should actually post something.

I can say that feature creep has not affected development of new products at Camera Bits.
Even this reply alludes to just that ..  as in the very next sentence:

We're making sure our products are responsive to an evolving photography market that's going through a lot of changes recently
because if not, what can be taking six years to put together, especially considering you've got the hard part already done and well vetted. The UI, metadata editing, handling of files, etc. PM5 is an amazing tool as it is.

Let me ask a question.  Would we even have Photo Mechanic if the development was done as you describe?  PM has come a LONG way from the beginning, but only because you actually had a beginning.
..and PM started as a simple ingesting tool, that still holds well to those roots, and has evolved to be an all encompassing management tool based around that very core function. But yes, it started as a something, that was available and I'm sure evolved around feedback just like this. 

I would welcome something that puts everything into one workflow, and would be absolutely willing to provide feedback through every bit of it.

I got into this not as a professional photographer, or a journalist on the scene, but a computer hobbyist evolved to small company IT dept. head, having photo-documented many things over the years, and came to realize that files in directories on a drive just was not cutting it anymore. 
« Last Edit: February 26, 2014, 12:53:25 PM by tdiaz »