Problem seeing NEF IPTC/XMP

[Alan]

Hi,

I'm using 4.6.5 on Windows 7 64.

I have Nikon NEF files that are not showing the IPTC/XMP data. This data shows in Nikon ViewNX & NX2. It also shows in Bridge, Expression Media 2, and in windows explorer. I've checked the the PM help recomended setting several times.

If I save something in PM it shows in other programs but all other IPTC/XMP data that had been added elsewhere is gone. What has been PM can be recalled in PM.

I just can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.

Alan

[Kirk Baker]

Alan,

I'm using 4.6.5 on Windows 7 64.

I have Nikon NEF files that are not showing the IPTC/XMP data. This data shows in Nikon ViewNX & NX2. It also shows in Bridge, Expression Media 2, and in windows explorer. I've checked the the PM help recomended setting several times.

If I save something in PM it shows in other programs but all other IPTC/XMP data that had been added elsewhere is gone. What has been PM can be recalled in PM.

I just can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.

Please post a JPEG screen shot of your IPTC/XMP tab of the Photo Mechanic Preferences dialog.  Use the 'Additional Options...' button when composing your reply to this message and there you can upload your JPEG screen shot.

Thanks,

-Kirk

[Alan]

Screen shop of my IPTC/XMP page

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Alan]

I have done a complete uninstall and reinstall the problem is still there. After uninstalling I deleted all folders that had Photo Mechanic or Camera Bits in the name. I did change the settings via the help before trying to look at files. I had done an uninstall/reinstall before my first message but without searching for and deleting the folders.

the problem may be related to previous use of the catalog programs Idimager and/or Expression Media 2. It appears the files that do not have this problem have not been touched by either of those programs. It does seem odd that the problem only comes up in Photo Mechanic though.

[Kirk Baker]

Screen shop of my IPTC/XMP page

That's a Microsoft Word document.  I was able to open up the Word doc and see your settings, but please in the future post a JPEG file.

I'm looking into your settings and I'll answer in another post.

-Kirk

[Kirk Baker]

Alan,

I'm using 4.6.5 on Windows 7 64.

I have Nikon NEF files that are not showing the IPTC/XMP data. This data shows in Nikon ViewNX & NX2. It also shows in Bridge, Expression Media 2, and in windows explorer. I've checked the the PM help recomended setting several times.

If I save something in PM it shows in other programs but all other IPTC/XMP data that had been added elsewhere is gone. What has been PM can be recalled in PM.

I just can't figure out what I'm doing wrong.

Part of the problem is that it is difficult to get Adobe's apps and Nikon's apps to all cooperate.  Nikon's apps ignore XMP sidecar files and only read and write embedded XMP.  Adobe's apps will read embedded XMP but won't update embedded XMP, and will only update XMP sidecar files.  Adobe's apps furthermore have an issue where they prefer the embedded XMP if present over the XMP data contained inside an accompanying XMP sidecar file.

PM will read and write embedded XMP and will read and write XMP sidecar files according to your preferred read order.

Your settings will always embed XMP in NEFs and will update XMP sidecar files if they exist already, but won't create them if they're not already there.

Mixing Nikon's apps and Adobe's apps (even taking PM out of the equation) is difficult at best because the two forms of XMP data (embedded and sidecar) will get out of sync.  Putting PM back into the equation for a moment: PM will read embedded XMP first and if found, won't bother to read the sidecar file (as you have it configured in your screen shot) so if an Adobe app updates the XMP sidecar file, PM (as configured) won't see the changes if the NEF file also has embedded XMP.

I know this is confusing, but this is the state of cross-application metadata compatibility at the moment.

-Kirk

[Alan]

Kirk,

Sorry about the word document. I'll use jpegs in the future.

I don't use Bridge. I did this time to see if it could also read the embedded XMP data, it could. It also created 2 sidecar files for the the files I examaned, I deleted these. I use photoshop on occision but have not used bridge in years. I perfer having the XMP data embedded in the file. Adobe is not in my IPTC/XMP workflow.

My problem is that I have 30,000+ images with embeded data that the Nikon software, windows, and Expression Media can read but that PM is not able to read. Also if I write any IPTC/XMP data via PM to these files, all the programs can read the new data but all the IPTC/XMP data that PM could not see is no longer seen in the other programs, I presume it was errased writing blank fields.

My best guess is that when Expression Media 2 writes to the files, the IPTC/XMP data is for some reason unreadable by PM.

Alan

[Kirk Baker]

Alan,

Sorry about the word document. I'll use jpegs in the future.

I don't use Bridge. I did this time to see if it could also read the embedded XMP data, it could. It also created 2 sidecar files for the the files I examaned, I deleted these. I use photoshop on occision but have not used bridge in years. I perfer having the XMP data embedded in the file. Adobe is not in my IPTC/XMP workflow.

You mentioned Bridge in your first post, so I thought it was part of your workflow.

My problem is that I have 30,000+ images with embeded data that the Nikon software, windows, and Expression Media can read but that PM is not able to read. Also if I write any IPTC/XMP data via PM to these files, all the programs can read the new data but all the IPTC/XMP data that PM could not see is no longer seen in the other programs, I presume it was errased writing blank fields.

My best guess is that when Expression Media 2 writes to the files, the IPTC/XMP data is for some reason unreadable by PM.

I'd be happy to take a look at one of the files you're having problems with and let you know what I find out.  Please click on my name to the left of this message, then click on the 'personal message' link.  I will respond with upload instructions.

-Kirk

[Hayo Baan]

Alan, as Kirk says, mixing both adobe and nikon software is tricky as they both approach meta data differently. With a little precaution you can have them all work together seamlessly though (I do).

One of the easiest things to do to get it working together is to only use PM for your metadata edits.  But even if you've changed metadata with one of the other programs, you can still make everything consistent: just have your xmp/iptc preferences set correctly and then use PM to update a dummy field, this will then synchronise the meta data between all sources.

Now coming back to your problem, I have no idea what could be wrong but are you sure you have no sidecar file corresponding to the files in question? Another thing that may result in the behaviour you are seeing is if you have nef/jpg pairs showing the info of only one of them.

If this all is not the case, the files may have a minor corruption. I'm sure Kirk will find that out quickly if you send him one of the files.

Greetings,
    Hayo

[Alan]

Hayo,

There are no sidecars and the only reason I used Bridge was to see what it showed. Also have only shot raw for several years now. I believe the issue is related to the last 2 catalog programs I've used. In the end I was not satisfied with either. I'm planning on now waiting patiently for the Camera Bits catalog program.

It appears that after I save any IPTC/XMP data in Nikon ViewNX all data is visable in PM.

Alan

[Hayo Baan]

Alan,

Hmm, this sounds like some sort of file structure problem to me. Have you already sent an example to Kirk? Perhaps he can find the cause and work around it in PM.

Cheers,
    Hayo

[Kirk Baker]

Alan,

There are no sidecars and the only reason I used Bridge was to see what it showed. Also have only shot raw for several years now. I believe the issue is related to the last 2 catalog programs I've used. In the end I was not satisfied with either. I'm planning on now waiting patiently for the Camera Bits catalog program.

It appears that after I save any IPTC/XMP data in Nikon ViewNX all data is visable in PM.

I have investigated your sample file.  It contains two XMP data chunks in it.  It also has two TIFF tables in it.  One is the original table starting at offset 8 in the file (that's where they usually start.)  The other is near the end of the file (which isn't unusual if the file has been captioned.)  However, at offset 4 in the file (the TIFF table 'pointer') the data points to the second TIFF table which references the second XMP data chunk.  PM sees this chunk and loads it.  Unfortunately it has no IPTC4XMP data in it, instead it only has a bunch of IDImager data in it.  The first XMP data chunk (which no longer has any offset pointing to its TIFF table that in turn references it) does have your caption data.

PM does not see this data because when it looks at offset four to find the TIFF table, the data directs it to the second TIFF table in the file which references the second XMP data chunk.  These other applications that you say do see your caption data are ignoring the TIFF table offset and are assuming that the TIFF table starts at offset 8 (the old TIFF table does indeed reside there) and are seeing the first XMP data chunk which contains your caption information.

The applications that see the old TIFF table are not written to specification and are hard-coded to assume certain information that may or may not be true.  This can cause all sorts of problems and that is why PM obeys the offset for the TIFF table and doesn't assume anything about the file.  PM lets the file 'speak for itself.'

What I don't understand is why IDImager didn't preserve your original caption data and instead completely omitted it.

Anyway, that explains the problem.

-Kirk

[Alan]

Kirk,

Thanks for the information and the insight. To 'fix' my problem, I'm updated the copywrite and contact information in my files using ViewNX. I general not a great way to update IPTC/XMP but it will work fine for this little project. I will be using PM with Expression Media 2 while I await Camera Bits cataloging solution.

Thanks again,
Alan