IPTC unkown tag “2:221" ??

[HRHundt]

I am using PM5 (now build 13507), on Windows 8. I am looking at a display of my IPTC data in another tool (PhotoME), and find an unknown entry displayed with tag “2:221".  I think this is causing problems when both Portfolio and Photo Mechanic are used to update the IPTC data.  I have details of this problem attached with some sample JPG files that exhibit the problem I am having.

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[Kirk Baker]

I am using PM5 (now build 13507), on Windows 8. I am looking at a display of my IPTC data in another tool (PhotoME), and find an unknown entry displayed with tag “2:221".  I think this is causing problems when both Portfolio and Photo Mechanic are used to update the IPTC data.  I have details of this problem attached with some sample JPG files that exhibit the problem I am having.

What is the actual problem?  IPTC Record 2 Field 221 is a Photo Mechanic field and shouldn't cause other applications any trouble.

-Kirk

[HRHundt]

I attached a detailed explanation (in the .....RTF file, the first attachment).  At the end of the background explanation, it summarizes the problem:

"That brings us to the current problem: I decided to “embed” (in Portfolio terms) the IPTC keyword fields in all of my JPG images with the values contained in the keyword section of the Portfolio catalog.   That is effectively an export from the catalog to the image files of all of the data I want to see in the IPTC fields.  The results are mixed, and many of the images show missing or incomplete IPTC data when viewed in Photo Mechanic, even though the embed operation completed successfully (and PSPP can view the IPTC fields including the added “keyword” data).   This is described in detail below."

There is more explanation in the analysis section of the attachment to explain how subsequent IPTC updates from Portfolio are interfering with PM5's viewing of the added/modified IPTC fields now in the JPG file. I attached several versions of the JPG so you could see what is happening.

Thanks, Harvey

[HRHundt]

Hello Again - I just checked the images that were uploaded, and they don't have the "2:221" entry, and it is probably because I had to Re-Size the images to get them uploaded.  I will attach a screen shot that shows the problem.

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[HRHundt]

Attached the screen shot

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[Kirk Baker]

I am using PM5 (now build 13507), on Windows 8. I am looking at a display of my IPTC data in another tool (PhotoME), and find an unknown entry displayed with tag “2:221".  I think this is causing problems when both Portfolio and Photo Mechanic are used to update the IPTC data.  I have details of this problem attached with some sample JPG files that exhibit the problem I am having.

I looked at your series of images both with Photo Mechanic and with a hex editor.  I see the progression and the loss of the "Test" keyword.  But I don't see why PM's custom IPTC field would cause any issues.  And without seeing what you did at each step of the progression I can't venture a solution but I'll guess at some possibilities with you:

3-PM5-Copy-Paste.JPG (perhaps you copied IPTC data from some image that didn't have keywords and then pasted it onto this one?  That would wipe out the keywords.)
4-PM5-Stationery-Pad.JPG (perhaps your IPTC Stationery Pad had the Keywords field checked but it was blank?  That would wipe out the keywords.)

The other images indicate in their filenames that they were worked on in Portfolio which lies outside my expertise.

-Kirk

[HRHundt]

Thanks for looking at the images - I think I have a couple of problems:  1) I think that Paint-Shop is wiping out the PM tag 221 entry when it saves a file; and 2) Portfolio is putting in new IPTC entries below the PM tag 221 entry, and then PM can't find the new ones that are below it.  This has been confusing for me, mainly because of using three different products that process IPTC data and in different ways.

I will contact Corel to find out about handling the IPTC tag 221, and see if they have suggestions.  I just tested my theory, and do see the 221 entry missing after "Save As" in Paint Shop.  It seems PM and PSPP are not playing well together. 

Portfolio allows customization of the IPTC field list, and I will attempt to use that feature to store the PM tag 221 entry in my Portolio tag as a user-added field. 

Does PM depend on the 221 entry being at the bottom of the list; if not, can you retrieve the entries below it in the list so that all the IPTC data shows up in the IPTC display in PM?

Thanks, Harvey

[Kirk Baker]

Harvey,

Thanks for looking at the images - I think I have a couple of problems:  1) I think that Paint-Shop is wiping out the PM tag 221 entry when it saves a file; and 2) Portfolio is putting in new IPTC entries below the PM tag 221 entry, and then PM can't find the new ones that are below it.  This has been confusing for me, mainly because of using three different products that process IPTC data and in different ways.

I will contact Corel to find out about handling the IPTC tag 221, and see if they have suggestions.  I just tested my theory, and do see the 221 entry missing after "Save As" in Paint Shop.  It seems PM and PSPP are not playing well together. 

Portfolio allows customization of the IPTC field list, and I will attempt to use that feature to store the PM tag 221 entry in my Portolio tag as a user-added field. 

Does PM depend on the 221 entry being at the bottom of the list; if not, can you retrieve the entries below it in the list so that all the IPTC data shows up in the IPTC display in PM?

No. IPTC data is unordered.  And I think this 221 issue is a red herring.  Your IPTC records don't have the Test keyword in them anymore.  They've been removed altogether.  That's why I'm speculating that you inadvertently removed the keywords with your IPTC Copy/Paste operation and/or IPTC Stationery Pad application.  Either operation is completely capable of wiping out IPTC/XMP fields.

I think you should do a test run and pay careful attention to what is in the IPTC Stationery Pad and in the IPTC Info of the image you copy from.  If you copy IPTC from an image that has no keywords and apply it to an image that has keywords, the keywords will be removed.  IPTC data is not merged in a copy/paste operation.  If you apply an IPTC Stationery Pad that has the Keywords field clear and the Keywords checkbox is set then it will clear out the Keywords field of every image it is applied onto.

-Kirk

-Kirk

[HRHundt]

Hello Kirk - let me explain a bit more about my last post ... the image was open in PhotoME and PM5 at the same time, and that's the screen shot that I posted.  PhotoME shows the keyword data (below the "2:221" entry), but PM5 doesn't show it.  I am detecting smelly fish, and would wager that it is NOT red herring!! (just trying to be funny, not mean).

So please look at my new JPGs: #11... is the resized image, no IPTC; #12 is the image with stationery pad applied; #13 is the result of adding keywords the way I have been doing with Portfolio.  No other processes or program have been used. 

By the way, I added the "2:221" field to my Portfolio catalog, and that works fine for me!! I've been looking for a way to add rating info to my Portfolio catalog for a long time.  I have the speed and utility of PM5 to do the rating and can just import (extract, in Protfolio terms) that into my catalog. 

I will attach three images and also a screen shot from Portfolio (detail view) of those images in my catalog.

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[Kirk Baker]

Harvey,

What would make it simplest for me is for you to share a single file that shows keywords (and please tell me what they are) in other apps but doesn't show the keywords in PM.  One file only.  And I don't need screenshots of other apps.  If you tell me that apps ABC and XYZ show a set of keywords (list them) and PM shows something different (list them) or nothing at all then I'll look into that single file for the list of keywords you specify.  If the keywords exist in the file then I'll find out why they're not visible in PM.  If the keywords do not exist in the file then either the apps have their own separate cache of keywords that correspond to the photo or you're viewing a different photo in PM than you're viewing in the other apps.

Please upload a single file, and list the keywords you expect to see in PM but don't see in PM.

Thanks,

-Kirk

[HRHundt]

Hello Kirk, that file would be "13-Keywords-Embedded", which you already have.  I see two keywords (Art and Snow) in Portfolio, in PhotoME, and in Paint Shop in that JPG, but those are not displayed by PM5.  Again, it is my observation that it may be because the PM5 "2:221" entry has not been moved to the bottom of the list.

The IPTC data in other fields (applied by PM5 stationery pad) are all displayed; those are shown in both JPGs "12..." and "13..." that were uploaded earlier.  Those IPTC entries would be "Description/Caption", "Description Writers", "Headline", "Credit", and "Source".

The other update that I have at this time is that after saving the file with Photoshop Elements, the PM5 "2:221" entry is again at the bottom (i.e., it shows up as the last entry in the PhotoME display) and PM5 does reveal all of the IPTC data, including the keywords that were missing after the embed operation from Portfolio.  By the way, I am not in a hurry to switch from Paint Shop to PS-Elements.

Thanks, Harvey

[Kirk Baker]

Harvey,

Hello Kirk, that file would be "13-Keywords-Embedded", which you already have.  I see two keywords (Art and Snow) in Portfolio, in PhotoME, and in Paint Shop in that JPG, but those are not displayed by PM5.  Again, it is my observation that it may be because the PM5 "2:221" entry has not been moved to the bottom of the list.

The IPTC data in other fields (applied by PM5 stationery pad) are all displayed; those are shown in both JPGs "12..." and "13..." that were uploaded earlier.  Those IPTC entries would be "Description/Caption", "Description Writers", "Headline", "Credit", and "Source".

The other update that I have at this time is that after saving the file with Photoshop Elements, the PM5 "2:221" entry is again at the bottom (i.e., it shows up as the last entry in the PhotoME display) and PM5 does reveal all of the IPTC data, including the keywords that were missing after the embed operation from Portfolio.  By the way, I am not in a hurry to switch from Paint Shop to PS-Elements.

Your Keywords are missing from the XMP metadata and you likely have Photo Mechanic set to read XMP before IPTC.  Your Keywords are only present in the IPTC metadata.  If you set PM to read IPTC before XMP then you should see your keywords.  But the best thing would be to find out which of your apps doesn't update XMP properly.  Keywords should be the same in both pieces of metadata.

It has nothing to do with the order of the PM Prefs IPTC field (Record 2, Field 221) just like I told you earlier.

HTH,

-Kirk

[HRHundt]

Hello Kirk - I told Portoflio to export keywords to IPTC, not XMP, so switching the read order in PM5 did the trick.  I really appreciate the help on this    Mark this topic "resolved" ... Harvey

[Kirk Baker]

Harvey,

Hello Kirk - I told Portoflio to export keywords to IPTC, not XMP, so switching the read order in PM5 did the trick.  I really appreciate the help on this    Mark this topic "resolved" ... Harvey

Is there some way to get Portfolio to update the XMP also?  IPTC is a legacy metadata format and XMP is the current standard.  You definitely want XMP to be in sync with your IPTC at the very least.

-Kirk