My Workflow: PM & Adobe Photoshop Lightroom

[Hydester]

Hi

Have just spent hours trying to evaluate the 'picks' from a shoot today using Adobe (Photoshop) Lightroom. What a mistake !

Don't get me wrong. LR is a fantastic program with a great future & a pretty good present. But using a Mac G5 2ghz DP with 3.5gigs ram it just was too slow to make quick assessments. I reverted to PM & had the job done in minutes.

So my own personal workflow I see as being this:

• Import RAW files (NEFs in my case)  & evaluate on laptop (MacBook Pro) using PM. Make selections using interchangeable star ratings/colour selections (embed data in XMP ! See preferences !)
  
• Tansfer to external HD (Lacie Porshe 160GB)

• Import into Adobe LR as DNGs from HD onto my main computer (G5 2Ghz DP 3.5) Optionally make further selections on this computer using PM.
• Develop images using LR

• Export to whatever format/size I feel appropriate & send these processed files to client
• Back up DNGs & LR Library module

Would be grateful for other users own take on this & any enhancements/disagreements they may have.

BTW for what it is worth I feel that PM & LR are the programmes of the near future for professional photographers. I have Aperture & most other programmes but these two stand out for reasons of speed and fantastic workflow in the case of LR and 'industry standard' positioning of LR along with great all-round features. It is a wonderful program but takes some learning. Get Martin Evening's book and look for 'How-To' videos on the web.

Perhaps my own view is skewed a bit that I do mostly 'people' photography & accordingly have a large number of images to assess, If I did 'car' photography or 'still-life' I may stick with LR alone (sorry PM guys !)

Personally though PM is right at the heart of my workflow.

Not least of the reasons for this is the amazing support we get (mainly from Kirk) on this website. Devotion over-and-above the call of duty.

Hope you take all the holidays that you are due Kirk !!

Best

Stephen

[Photo_op]

Stephen-
I too have settled on a workflow that centers around Photo Mechanic and Lightroom, and for much the same reasoning you have outlined. I am new to the serious digital photo experience. I started by reading Peter Krogh's DAM book. I shoot now with Nikon D200 and Leica Digilux 3, both in RAW. I work in the Mac environment and have tried iView and Nikon Capture NX. I've made the bet that Lightroom will mature quickly beyond version 1, to become more catalog capable than it currently is. I also think it offers more/better photo development at this point than NX. With me being a "novice" take that for what it's worth. But as Peter has mentioned in his forum, "it" works for me.

One of the potential differences from your workflow, is that I purposely "park" my RAWs in a Working folder outside Lightroom (both on my laptop and desktop) prior to ingesting in LR. I may spend more time in the "Working" folder with PM mostly to avoid the issues I have with LR syncing metadata changes back to the originals.

I also agree with your final comment, regarding why PM is a major part of my workflow. Its due to the superior product and the "amazing" support given to us by CameraBits in general and Kirk in particular - sorry Dennis  .

Dave

[robok]

One of the potential differences from your workflow, is that I purposely "park" my RAWs in a Working folder outside Lightroom (both on my laptop and desktop) prior to ingesting in LR. I may spend more time in the "Working" folder with PM mostly to avoid the issues I have with LR syncing metadata changes back to the originals.

Dave

Can you explain this more?  I have been looking at PM to use with a stand alone RAW program, not thinking of PM+LR due to the redundancy of features.

If I did go the PM+LR route, I don't understand your comment above.

Thanks

[Photo_op]

Rob-
I've modified my workflow slightly since the previous comment, but I'll try to respond to your question. I'm still developing a workflow hoping to use PM and LR only, but unless (until) LR evolves to my needs I'll still also need DNG Converter, Bridge and ACR also. As I stated earlier, I shoot in RAW. My folder structure is loosely based on Peter Krogh's DAM bucket structure with corresponding backups to external harddrives and DVDs.

1Working
    2007-04-14
    2007-04-15

2DNG
    DVD_XXX
    DVD_009
    DVD_010
        2007-04-14
        2007-04-15

I ingest my shoots from camera using PM into a dated subfolder of 1Working. Metadata and keywords are added by IPTC Stationary Pad. By "parking" I mean that they are liable to remain in that subfolder for a period of time. During that time, I may add additional keywords, ranking and other Metadata in PM. I have two Lightroom Libraries, one for 1Working and the second for 2DNG. So at some time of my choosing, subfolder 2007-04-15 is ingested into the Lightroom library 1Working. There I use the Develop Module to make adjustments to the RAWs using XMP sidecars. The photos may remain in 1Working for several days to more than a week as I work on the photos in LR. Adjustments made in LR are "saved" back to the originals using Metadata>XMP>Export XMP Metadata to Files. Next step is to convert RAWs from 2007-04-15 in 1Working into DNGs in 2007-04-15 in 3DNG>DVD_010. Using the belts and suspenders theory, I embed the RAW in the DNG (disk space is cheap). Then I ingest the DNGs into LR (again referenced). Now the DNGs with modifications can be previewed in PM with the same "values" as in LR. At this point I make printed contact sheets from either PM or LR.

But, here's were I need LR to evolve. Any further adjustments made by LR to the DNGs also need to have the XMP saved back to the DNGs. Then in a workaround explained by Peter Krogh here -

http://thedambook.com/smf/index.php?topic=1956.0

I use Bridge and Adobe Camera Raw to update the preview in the DNG. And I'm still using iView to catalog the DNGs, until PM adds their catalog feature   .

FWIW, I think you'll find redundancy in whatever "RAW program" you use with PM. For me, what PM does, it does better than any other program I've found. AND, I'm betting from what I've gleened from the forums that LR will mature in a fashion that will work for me.

Hope this helps.

Dave

[robok]

Thanks for the detailed explanation.  I was leaning much towards LR, but now am settling on Bibble.  I listed out my requirements and above all was image quality that I could produce repeatedly.  I did head to head tests, and about 90% for me were better on Bibble.  Better colors, better crispness.  Some areas LR did better, but overall I felt better in Bibble.

One thing I did not with LR is how to use the Library on JPGs that get Developed.  In other words, my end use of images is mostly JPG -- email, web, DVD slide show, Shutterfly books.  From what I understand with LR, when you Develop, the resulting JPGs are NOT back in the Library.  While the appeal of LR is a one program, start-to-finish, I don't think it is there yet.

My flow now:

1.  Ingest/rename:  Breeze DownLoader pro

2.  Culling/Tagging/Rating:  a bit of a hole here, some in Bibble, some in a simple broswer.  Considering PM here (and if I did that it would replace DL Pro)

3.  RAW conversion:  Bibble

4.  other editing:  some PSE, but really limited.  (no Bridge or PhotoShop)

5.  Library/Browsing:  not sure yet.  Have looked at all the usual suspects, iMatch, idImager, iView.  I use an all-media program, James River Media Center, but it's strength is music and images are not quite as strong.


Lightroom could do all of this, kinda sorta, but not quite.

I don't have all my folders sorted out.  I have a date/subject structure that worked well for all JPG, but need to rethink for RAW+JPG.

thanks!

Good luck with LR.

Rob.

EDIT:  if i had smart searches like the Mac version of PM has, I could do #5 in PM, but I am in windows.  I have pretty basic library needs.

[Brendan]

Stephen, why do you need PM, you can do all this (ingest, selecting, tagging) also with LR - all in one program.

what du you think about capture NX2?

[courtlevephoto]

I work in a similar fashion...

I use PM to keyword, rename and sort my selections, keeps and outs....

I then load my keeps into Light Room.  Edit as needed.  I then save my images as .dng upon export, this ensures that any virtual copies I've made, make new files.  Then I'm done....  Some import and have files turned to DNG upon import.  Doesn't seem to matter either way how you do this.

Yes, you can do all of this in light room but it takes about 1/10th the time to sort in PM first.  Light room is great at some things but not for all.  Especially not anything quick... This is from someone working on a macbook pro and a g5.  The MBP is twice as quick...

[gregoire]

Stephen, why do you need PM, you can do all this (ingest, selecting, tagging) also with LR - all in one program.

what du you think about capture NX2?

I'm not Stephen but I use PM & LR too in about the same way. PM is much more flexible adding metadata and faster displaying previews. So I first cull, then add metadata, then import into LR. More efficient that way.

[mbbphoto]

what du you think about capture NX2?

NX2 is an amazing RAW processor. The skin tones are the best and control is great HOWEVER it is really slow, especially if you try to batch.
I shoot corporate and lifestyle.
Every frame is different, the volume is quite large. For me, it is completely impractical for a realistic workflow.
PM is simply in a class of its own for editing and metadata (not retrieving, yet).
Lightroom is great and 2.0 is better BUT the library system is limiting, especially if you're on multiple computers....
Marc

[munchmeister]

PMJI but I am evaluating several of the DAM products, from Photo Mechanic to Lightroom2, with my primary interest centered around using Capture NX2 as my RAW converter and editor of choice. My workflow, once my photos are 'ingested' is to 'tag' the keepers in the DAM software, such as Photo Mechanic, and then to grade these selections using star ratings. While still in PM or LR or whatever, I use the software command that lets me 'edit in external editor' which I have set to CaptureNX. I do the editing of the selected RAW file in CNX, close the RAW file and go back to PM, LR, etc. What I hope to find is that the JPG thumbnail is updated to reflect the changes made in CNX. In other words, my work shows up in Photo Mech or whatever DAM product I'm using. From there, I would like to use the DAM software to upload to the web, converting the edited RAW to a smaller JPG that reflects the now edited RAW, using the updated JPG preview (embedded?).

Or am I trying to do too much in too few steps? Perhaps I need a whole 'nother step in there where I mark the edited RAW files (NEFs) and convert that batch to JPGs for uploading.

If you have any thoughts, I'd be all ears.

TIA,

--Doug

[RobertE]

Hi Doug,

Try the new ACR profiles at Adobe Labs:

http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/DNG_Profiles/

They get you closer to the Nikon "look" if that's what you want.

-- Robert.

[Roger Caris]

I am a wedding photographer taking between 1000 to 2000 RAW images at a wedding. PM is superb at culling them. Nothing beats it for speed. Although most folk are moving to Lightroom I am sticking with PM and DPP. I have been put off by so many stories of how slow Lightroom is.

Perhaps in the future I will change.

[vAfotoriporter]

I am a wedding photographer taking between 1000 to 2000 RAW images at a wedding. PM is superb at culling them. Nothing beats it for speed. Although most folk are moving to Lightroom I am sticking with PM and DPP. I have been put off by so many stories of how slow Lightroom is.

Perhaps in the future I will change.

I am testing Apple's all new Aperture 3 at the moment as an alternative to LightRoom in my workflow. Not really with the intention to switch from LightRoom just out of curiosity. Aperture 3 seems a lot faster than Aperture 2 was but still not as fast as LightRoom is (on my MacBook it is). Both LR and Aperture 3 have some features one or the other does better or in a more comfortable way.
I really just tested their catalog and DAM capabilites but PM is invincible I can say. Both in speed and easy control. Of course PM is not (yet) a full DAM lacking the catalog functions, but I don't really need that feature at the moment.

Actually I prefer to ingest, caption, cull and sort out images with PM then send them to LR only for edit and continue to manage the exported versions in PM.

[platti]

Hi,

My starting point into DAM was Peter Kroeghs Book and iViewMedia. Then there were some troubles with IVM and my Mac and I had to look for another basic app and found Photo Mechanic by a hint in a forum.
I tried LR for some time, but I got back to PM as Importer, Classifier, Keyworder, Selector, Searcher, Uploader, Showcase ... because it does what is necessary, and this is done fast and accurate. I don't like the idea of these "I-can-do-all-for-you" apps.
For converting I use BibblePro or the small and very special RPP (Raw Photo Processor) and for overall (two extern HDs + iMac) DAM-needs I use Atomicview. But still my first look-up is done with PM.

[vAfotoriporter]

"I-can-do-all-for-you" apps.

I don't have any problem with the idea of it. Just the implementation. Everyone (especially LightRoom, and Aperture) tries to do it, but they fail with the basics what PM does superfast. After this point the rest just doesn't work well.

Maybe PM could become the ideal "I-can-do-all-for-you" app after completing the catalog part and receiveing a RAW editor too. But guys at CameraBits know better than to want to make it. PM is a fine tool as it is. And it works well together with anything possible.