Author Topic: Subscription Model  (Read 65305 times)

Offline bwana

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • Posts: 39
    • View Profile
Re: Subscription Model
« Reply #15 on: November 14, 2023, 06:15:49 AM »
Yes, Topaz AI for example

But that's a once off $199 purchase according to their site?

Quote
Get the latest version of your favorite Topaz app. Purchase an Upgrade License whenever you want – every year, or every few years. No commitment or subscription required.
https://www.topazlabs.com/pricing

Offline leitner

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • Posts: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Subscription Model
« Reply #16 on: November 14, 2023, 01:09:03 PM »
“The perpetual license version of Photo Mechanic will receive maintenance updates for things like security issues until May 2024.” (Emphasis mine)

This is in effect an end of life announcement. Most security conscious people don’t continue to use software when security updates are no longer provided. I find it shocking that Camera Bits would continue to sell new licenses for up to $199 today with only six months of support. This makes it equivalent to a six month subscription at over $33 a month (unless one does not care about security).

I find it ominous that non-security bug fixes are not mentioned in the announcement — hopefully they fall under maintenance updates.

Camera Bits can obviously do whatever they please, and I understand there are benefits to subscription services. However, it does not generate goodwill to have such a short announced end-of-life period for PM6. When companies like Microsoft publish the support timelines for major software, e.g. perpetual license versions of Office, the timeframe is years of advance warning, not months.

Brian

Offline carlseibert

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 168
    • View Profile
Re: Subscription Model
« Reply #17 on: November 14, 2023, 01:43:57 PM »
Cautionary tale:

Think about Adobe. Once upon a time, they were thought of as an upstanding company. Beloved, even. Photoshop was as clean a program as you could get.  It was considered a professional tool, stable and reliable.  Now their good will is gone. They're widely
thought of as a monopolistic pariah. And Photoshop is derided as a bug farm. Many of the bugs being self-inflicted wounds, I would add.

When did it all change for them?  Sure looks to me like it was when they adopted a rental model.

Look, on paper the subscription model is great. 20% a year.  Steady income for the developer. Enterprises can plan expenses. Sounds grand. (Except that it hasn't been 20% of a new license for a long time. Most developers nowadays are somehow extracting 60% or so of the cost of a new
license every year.)

Consumers are indeed willing to sign up. I can't argue with that. (If I were to guess, I'd say mostly because they don't trust a product and don't want to commit the purchase price. Because most software nowadays doesn't actually work as promised. But hey, that's just me being cynical.)

Under a subscription model, developers are expected to release whiz-bang new features on a yearly cycle. When software is immature, that's easy enough. Well, not easy, but there's a legitimate appetite for improvements. 

Back in the day, Adobe released a new Photoshop about every 18 months. Digital imaging was evolving fast. I bought the upgrade every version or every other version. (At 40% to 60% of a full license price, IIRC) Because there was a point to it. But still, if a version didn't represent a real improvement in utility, I wasn't forced to buy it.

Now, the industry has matured. There is less need for new features.

But Adobe needs new features every year to justify outrageous subscription rates ($250 a year for Photoshop? Really?) So, every year we get a new batch of breakage. Tools don't work. Interface defaults change and it takes many hours spread over many weeks to make them work again. Stability goes in the dumper, is almost fixed in dot releases, then breaks a different way next year.  Most, no, virtually all, enterprise users that I know of keep their sanity by using Photoshop CC that's two or three versions old. But the bill comes every year regardless. Is it any wonder why every graphics professional in the world resents Adobe at this point?

The hostages, er, customers, feel exploited. They bad mouth the developer. They migrate to whatever AI-fueled gimmick machine with a pretty interface comes along next. Rinse and repeat

I would hate to see that for Photo Mechanic.

Tread carefully, my friends.

-Carl

Offline bradg

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • Posts: 4
    • View Profile
Re: Subscription Model
« Reply #18 on: November 14, 2023, 07:41:23 PM »
Yes, Topaz AI for example

But that's a once off $199 purchase according to their site?

Quote
Get the latest version of your favorite Topaz app. Purchase an Upgrade License whenever you want – every year, or every few years. No commitment or subscription required.
https://www.topazlabs.com/pricing

$199 for the original purchase. This includes all updates/upgrades for 12 months from time of purchase. At the end of the 12 months, you can use whatever version it happens to be at at that time forever. Once you have made the original purchase, you can pay $99 for another 12 months of updates/upgrades. But you are allowed to have a gap between the update/upgrade periods. For example, if when the first 12 months are up you are content with where the software is, you can go a year with no updates. At that time, you may decide the software has something new in it that you want, and thus pay $99 for another 12 months of updates (which gets you back to current version). Rinse and repeat ... until Topaz sends Photo AI to their huge boneyard of previous titles. So basically, you are allowed to use the software indefinitely in whatever state it was in at the end of any of your 12 month update periods.

Offline bwana

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • Posts: 39
    • View Profile
Re: Subscription Model
« Reply #19 on: November 14, 2023, 08:11:48 PM »
Yes, Topaz AI for example

But that's a once off $199 purchase according to their site?

Quote
Get the latest version of your favorite Topaz app. Purchase an Upgrade License whenever you want – every year, or every few years. No commitment or subscription required.
https://www.topazlabs.com/pricing

$199 for the original purchase. This includes all updates/upgrades for 12 months from time of purchase. At the end of the 12 months, you can use whatever version it happens to be at at that time forever. Once you have made the original purchase, you can pay $99 for another 12 months of updates/upgrades. But you are allowed to have a gap between the update/upgrade periods. For example, if when the first 12 months are up you are content with where the software is, you can go a year with no updates. At that time, you may decide the software has something new in it that you want, and thus pay $99 for another 12 months of updates (which gets you back to current version). Rinse and repeat ... until Topaz sends Photo AI to their huge boneyard of previous titles. So basically, you are allowed to use the software indefinitely in whatever state it was in at the end of any of your 12 month update periods.
What you're describing is basically Camera Bit's current business model and not a subscription model. Think more along the lines of Adobe Creative Cloud and Microsoft 365.

Offline Kevin M. Cox

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 545
  • PM 2024.10 (8173) | macOS 15.1
    • View Profile
    • Kevin M. Cox | Photojournalist
Re: Subscription Model
« Reply #20 on: November 14, 2023, 08:18:22 PM »

They have? Apple has released major upgrades to MacOS annually, in June, for over 20 years...

Apple did not begin yearly releases until macOS 10.9 Mavericks in 2013. So 10 years ago, not 20. The previous 10 years only saw five major macOS releases.
Kevin M. Cox | Photojournalist
https://www.instagram.com/kevin.m.cox/

Offline bwana

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • Posts: 39
    • View Profile
Re: Subscription Model
« Reply #21 on: November 14, 2023, 08:30:21 PM »

They have? Apple has released major upgrades to MacOS annually, in June, for over 20 years...

Apple did not begin yearly releases until macOS 10.9 Mavericks in 2013. So 10 years ago, not 20. The previous 10 years only saw five major macOS releases.
Fair enough, but I count nine as opposed to five between 2001 and 2012. The release cycle was as follows: Jan 2001, July 2001, May 2003, June 2003, May 2004, June 2006, June 2008, Oct 2001, Feb 2012, June 2013, June 2014, June 2015, June 2016, June 2017, June 2019, June 2020, June 2021, June 2022, and now June 2023. (Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacOS)

Any "acceleration" happened long ago and using it as an excuse to switch to a subscription model bogus.

Offline Kevin M. Cox

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 545
  • PM 2024.10 (8173) | macOS 15.1
    • View Profile
    • Kevin M. Cox | Photojournalist
Re: Subscription Model
« Reply #22 on: November 14, 2023, 08:49:57 PM »
Am I thrilled by this change? No.

Do I understand it? Yes!

Photo Mechanic has been an amazing value over the years.

I believe the store has always stated that a license includes one year of updates, but in practice Camera Bits has never enforced that. Every purchase has included all updates for that major version.

I've personally (for home, not counting my newspaper staff jobs) purchased Photo Mechanic four times: versions 3, 4, 5 and 6.

PM 5 was released in 2012 and PM 6 not until 2019. This means I got seven years of updates on a single $80 upgrade purchase.

This also means I'm on year four of updates for a single $85 upgrade purchase to version 6.

I can't find my receipts all the way back to version 3, but in the past 11 years I've only paid Camera Bits $165.52!

I'm surprised it has taken them this long to stop leaving money on the table (and I'm sure the decision wasn't made lightly).

So while I'm not looking forward to paying more than $15 per year for PM like I have over the past decade, I can't be too upset with Camera Bits here. Unless the price is outrageous it'll be a business expense worth the cost I'm sure.

I do wish we had more details up front:

• How much per month?
• Yearly discount available?
• Does this begin with the release of PM 7?
• Can we still activate multiple computers (desktop / laptop) like we can now?

But I'd rather see this change than risk PM going away if the development is no longer sustainable otherwise.
Kevin M. Cox | Photojournalist
https://www.instagram.com/kevin.m.cox/

Offline charlesteton

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 95
    • View Profile
    • www.charlesteton.com
Re: Subscription Model
« Reply #23 on: November 14, 2023, 08:55:36 PM »
Not sure what to think or do! Does that mean we will never see a native Apple silicon version? Trouble is that there is no info at all what a subscription based version will bring or pricing. Seems like since M1 came out it's been in maintenance mode behind the scenes, 'if not' just tell us what the road plan is, so we can make an informed decision. Thanks.

Offline bwana

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • Posts: 39
    • View Profile
Re: Subscription Model
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2023, 09:09:55 PM »

PM 5 was released in 2012 and PM 6 not until 2019. This means I got seven years of updates on a single $80 upgrade purchase.

Remarkable really. I can understand now why they'd rather switch to a subscription model than innovate more regularly. Annual or biennial upgrades probably sounds like too much work even if it meant they'd get that $80 fee on a more regular basis.

Offline Kevin M. Cox

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 545
  • PM 2024.10 (8173) | macOS 15.1
    • View Profile
    • Kevin M. Cox | Photojournalist
Re: Subscription Model
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2023, 09:25:16 PM »

PM 5 was released in 2012 and PM 6 not until 2019. This means I got seven years of updates on a single $80 upgrade purchase.

Remarkable really. I can understand now why they'd rather switch to a subscription model than innovate more regularly. Annual or biennial upgrades probably sounds like too much work even if it meant they'd get that $80 fee on a more regular basis.

You're slipping into trollish territory now. I'm clearly talking about "major" version upgrades. It isn't like PM wasn't updated during that time. Features were added, bugs were squashed and I filed tens-of-thousands of photos on deadline.

Do I wish some bugs would get fixed faster? Yes. Do I wish some features would get added faster? Yes.

But who am I to complain for my $15 a year if the core functionality is still there?

At the end of the day this change in licensing model will be a cost benefit analysis that each of us will need to make individually. As a professional photographer I'm anticipating reasonable pricing that will be easy to justify as a cost of doing business.

Of course we've gotta wait for that pricing to be announced before we can make the analysis. Until then all we can do is respectfully share our opinions.
Kevin M. Cox | Photojournalist
https://www.instagram.com/kevin.m.cox/

Offline jgrove

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • Posts: 46
    • View Profile
Re: Subscription Model
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2023, 10:15:32 PM »
PM has a very difficult market to compete in now when other products have similar features within an existing pricing model. This means PM users are less reliant on the program, personally I think these changes, while likely necessary for PM, may see the user base fall significantly. I just hope they follow Topaz Labs with PM pricing model, where you pay up front and then an annual maintenance fee.

Offline fotopan

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • Posts: 9
    • View Profile
Re: Subscription Model
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2023, 11:50:24 PM »
PM has a very difficult market to compete in now when other products have similar features within an existing pricing model. This means PM users are less reliant on the program, personally I think these changes, while likely necessary for PM, may see the user base fall significantly.
My thoughts exactly. I don`t use PM regularly as I mostly use other programs to manage my photos, however I did maintain (upgraded regularly) the PM license just in case I needed PM functionality for a given task. As PM is not essential to my workflow, I won't subscribe to PM nor PM Plus.
It's interesting, by the way, how the spread of subscription models reduces the diversity of software used. I used to have a lot of different software installed on my computer because I bought software when I needed some functionality or something in my opinion worked better in one program than in another and there was no good free equivalent. Once I had the program installed, I bought an upgrade from time to time - usually when a new version of the software was released and I needed to use it again and had some money at hand. Nowadays, any program that switches to a subscription model and is not strictly required for daily work is sooner or later uninstalled from my computer because I only rent the software I need on daily basis - no "nice to have" subscriptions!
--
Pawel

Offline bildbaendiger

  • Member
  • **
  • Posts: 75
    • View Profile
    • bildbaendiger
Re: Subscription Model
« Reply #28 on: November 15, 2023, 02:06:18 AM »
It's a pity.
The subscription model has its advantages for the company, but only disadvantages for the customer.

I buy software that largely does what I expect it to do. Over time, bugs are fixed and small new features are added.
All in all, I get what I expect for a one-off payment. If there is a major change, I can consider whether it is worth the new fee.

With the subscription model, I pay money every month in the deceptive hope of always getting the best and latest. However, this will not come true and I will keep chasing and paying.

Camerabits will lose many customers by switching exclusively to the subscription model.

Thomas

Offline tempusrob

  • Newcomer
  • *
  • Posts: 3
    • View Profile
Re: Subscription Model
« Reply #29 on: November 15, 2023, 10:49:06 AM »
I get that sustaining development for years on one-time purchases is difficult. I'd be more willing to get on board with this if I knew more about the future of PM's features and overall product. The blog post is awfully vague, and blaming it largely on OS versions is kinda weird.

But are we talking about enabling the devs to make PM do what it does even better? Enabling deeper workflow customization? iOS versions? UI modernization? If a sub is what it takes for that ... sign me up, I guess.

Or are we getting trendy markeing bulletpoints like "AI" that will ultimately bog PM down just to make line go up?