Author Topic: PM desaturating images when using "Save Photo As..."  (Read 9664 times)

Offline RMLYphoto

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PM desaturating images when using "Save Photo As..."
« on: February 12, 2012, 02:41:33 PM »
Hi, so this is my first time using this thread and I'm sorry if this has already been brought up, but I've been attempting to control click and use the "Save Photo As.." feature in photo mechanic while editing to convert my .NEF files to jpegs but every time I do this the jpegs are always desaturated and lacking the contrast that I have amped up in my camera settings.  If anyone knows a way to keep the colors the same while saving as or can point me in the right direction I'd certainly appreciate it.


Below I attached my save as settings and an example of what an image typically looks like before and after

Thanks,

Ryan

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Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: PM desaturating images when using "Save Photo As..."
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2012, 03:29:10 PM »
Ryan,

Hi, so this is my first time using this thread and I'm sorry if this has already been brought up, but I've been attempting to control click and use the "Save Photo As.." feature in photo mechanic while editing to convert my .NEF files to jpegs but every time I do this the jpegs are always desaturated and lacking the contrast that I have amped up in my camera settings.  If anyone knows a way to keep the colors the same while saving as or can point me in the right direction I'd certainly appreciate it.


Below I attached my save as settings and an example of what an image typically looks like before and after

Those are two different photos.  I suggest using Nikon's software to save your NEF files as JPEGs.  You should get excellent results that way.

-Kirk

Offline RMLYphoto

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Re: PM desaturating images when using "Save Photo As..."
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2012, 07:44:49 PM »
Well yea, they're two different photos from a burst so the color should be the same though.  Regardless, I don't have Nikon's software readily available and I'd like to keep my workflow photo mechanic oriented at the moment.  I haven't seen these issues with any of my friends who use Mechanic in the same way, so shouldn't there be something I can adjust so it keeps my contrast?

Offline FVlcek

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Re: PM desaturating images when using "Save Photo As..."
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2012, 04:15:07 AM »
Ryan, a question:

You do realize that PM is not a RAW convertor? It can either only exctract the emedded JPEG preview inside the NEF (which is around maximum 1MB in size and pretty high compression in most Nikon cameras), or it can rely on Apple's own RAW conversion built-in to OS X (whcih does colours quite differently to camera). If you nevertheless want to just exctract the previews (which might be fine for small photos on web or emailing previews), you can give it a shot. Just understand that the files produced will be low-quality embedded previews produced by the camera, so you could just as well shoot RAW+JPEG...(and probably get better results). PM allows all operations on RAW+JPEG photo pairs very well, either as on a pair or separately.

Also, you have posted two photos which makes it hard to tell. From a quick look, what is the colour space your camera is set to? AdobeRGB? sRGB? And especially as you combined them together to one photo with undefined (or your monitor's) colour space "ColorLCD" (is that Apple's default for macbooks?), it's very hard to tell anything more where could be the problem. But I am betting on colour management mishap in your settings.

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: PM desaturating images when using "Save Photo As..."
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2012, 06:33:26 AM »
Well yea, they're two different photos from a burst so the color should be the same though.  Regardless, I don't have Nikon's software readily available and I'd like to keep my workflow photo mechanic oriented at the moment.  I haven't seen these issues with any of my friends who use Mechanic in the same way, so shouldn't there be something I can adjust so it keeps my contrast?

One of the photos is more directly aimed at the sun so it's hard to tell for me which one has the more pleasing color for you, the shooter.  Obviously there is quite a difference between the two photos.

Photo Mechanic does not offer any adjustments for RAW photos and unless you tell it to render a RAW file it just uses the embedded JPEG preview from the RAW file as its source image data for operations such as Save As, Exporting, and Printing.  As such the capabilities are limited by the quality of the embedded JPEG.  Or if you tell it to render the RAW file, it has no way to duplicate the 'look' that the camera's settings provide.

If now you were to extract the embedded JPEG (from the Tools menu) and it doesn't look the same as the photo (and you're not telling PM to render RAW for thumbnails and previews) then it's possible that ICC profile information is getting lost.

I'd need to see an image that shows the RAW file and the extracted JPEG sitting side-by-side in order to make a comparison.

-Kirk

Offline RMLYphoto

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Re: PM desaturating images when using "Save Photo As..."
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2012, 08:04:35 PM »
I'm not trying to convert the raw files, and yes when I extract the embedded preview the colors stay true.  Here, I'll post another picture and see if this might yield any clarification.  I picked one with alot of blacks because it seems like using the Save As feature does the most damage to the blacks and shadows, as well as any warm tones (note the horizon).  Thanks for the patience and help, I appreciate it. 

Once again I'll post my Save As... settings again as well.

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Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: PM desaturating images when using "Save Photo As..."
« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2012, 10:54:20 PM »
Ryan,

I'm not trying to convert the raw files, and yes when I extract the embedded preview the colors stay true.  Here, I'll post another picture and see if this might yield any clarification.  I picked one with alot of blacks because it seems like using the Save As feature does the most damage to the blacks and shadows, as well as any warm tones (note the horizon).  Thanks for the patience and help, I appreciate it. 

Once again I'll post my Save As... settings again as well.

Try unchecking the 'Convert to sRGB" check box.  You're likely losing a lot of color range with that choice.

HTH,

-Kirk

Offline mbbphoto

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Re: PM desaturating images when using "Save Photo As..."
« Reply #7 on: February 16, 2012, 11:28:48 AM »
What Color Profile do you have assigned in camera?
My hunch is that it is Adobe RGB so that is how the preview presents.
You then convert to sRGB in PM which has a different gamut and thus different colour.
We use the sRGB profile (which is good for most of our online needs) in camera and Assign Adobe RGB, only if needed, when exported from Lightroom.
Since your dealing wih RAW files these are 'lossless' conversions (within the possible gamut).
Marc
Marc

Offline RMLYphoto

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Re: PM desaturating images when using "Save Photo As..."
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2012, 03:55:10 PM »
I've tried checking and unchecking sRGB, Subsample Chroma, Allow RAW previews to be used as source, and just about any other combination and I get the exact same results every time. 

Offline mbbphoto

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Re: PM desaturating images when using "Save Photo As..."
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2012, 03:56:57 PM »
I repeat my question...
What color space is the camera applying to your raw files????
Its in the setup menu I think
Marc

Offline Hayo Baan

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Re: PM desaturating images when using "Save Photo As..."
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2012, 06:46:10 AM »
Hmm, something strange is happening here; unless you are converting an Adobe RGB camera file to sRGB, there should be no real colour difference between the preview and the save-as version. I do this all the time and it works flawlessly.

Are you sure you have tried to do a save as with "convert to sRGB" off and "Allow RAW previews to be used as source" on?

Perhaps you could send me the sample NEF file so I can try to investigate this (simply write me an e-mail)?

Cheers,
Hayo
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Offline RMLYphoto

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Re: PM desaturating images when using "Save Photo As..."
« Reply #11 on: February 19, 2012, 07:22:52 PM »
Sorry sorry, I shoot everything in Adobe RGB. 

And yea, I've tried every possible combination of clicked and unclicked boxes, including the above mentioned. 

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: PM desaturating images when using "Save Photo As..."
« Reply #12 on: February 19, 2012, 08:20:54 PM »
Ryan,

Sorry sorry, I shoot everything in Adobe RGB. 

And yea, I've tried every possible combination of clicked and unclicked boxes, including the above mentioned. 

At this point I think we're going to need a sample NEF file from you.  Please provide a link to one we can download.  Or if you have no way to provide a link, please click on my name to the left of this message, then click on the 'personal message' link.  I will respond with upload instructions.

-Kirk

Offline mbbphoto

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Re: PM desaturating images when using "Save Photo As..."
« Reply #13 on: February 21, 2012, 07:26:56 PM »
Sorry sorry, I shoot everything in Adobe RGB. 

And yea, I've tried every possible combination of clicked and unclicked boxes, including the above mentioned. 

So try shooting something with sRGB applied in camera and see what happens.
Remember that this only affects the preview in the raw file.
When you export from your raw processor you can export in any color space you like...

Also remember that the gamut chart that appears at the top right of the pm contact sheet window can be clicked on and off.
See if anything changes when you hit the 'c' key.\

Also check your color management prefs.
Mine is defaulted to  'No Default Profile'.
Perhaps your assigning Adobe RGB.

Good Luck!

Marc

Offline Hayo Baan

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Re: PM desaturating images when using "Save Photo As..."
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2012, 06:05:39 AM »
Ryan actually sent me a test NEF file a couple of days ago. Ye, he shot aRGB in-camera, but that isn't the issue (any loss of colour due to the smaller gamut of sRGB is hardly noticeable). In fact there didn't seem to be any issue with the file, nor with any of the save-as conversions I did.

For completeness I'll post my answer to Ryan and my test results here too.
Quote
I've just had a look at your image and there is nothing wrong with it. Your camera is indeed set to Adobe RGB as I expected, but even when converting that to the smaller gamut, I don't lose a lot of saturation (in fact the difference is barely noticeable).

So why save as gives you such a different image is beyond me. The only thing I can think of is that you let your RAW somehow be interpreted by the system before saving the file; that would explain everything. There's a setting in PM both in the preferences and on the save-as dialogue that controls this, but if I recall correctly you had set this the right way so this shouldn't be it???

Attached are some screenshots and converted files to illustrate what I was getting.

Note: the uploaded images have been converted to sRGB and therefore have lost some of the original colour.

Oh, and for clarity: the Original_RAW_aRGB and Original_RAW_sRGB files are the result of PM's save-as, Original_RAW.jpg is the jpg extracted from the Original_RAW.NEF file.
I should have used more descriptive names…

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« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 06:08:58 AM by Hayo Baan »
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