Catalog News - A Huge Disappointment

[Photo_op]

Up front let me say that I am still using PM v4.5, sparingly. I have waited years for the release of the promised catalogue upgrade/add-on for PM. As a "less" than professional photographer, I did not have the resources to purchase upgrades waiting for the catalogue in what ever form it was to appear. In the interim (while waiting), I've found Lightroom, which obviously has a catalogue module. PM has been , is and I'm sure with v5, will be a rock solid program, but with the latest news I will bid Camera Bits adieu. I believe Dennis has badly misjudged the development of the catalogue feature, primarily based upon the resources available to the company. I also think he succumbed to the the dreaded developer's affliction of feature bloat. I'm not angry as much as disappointed. I really looked forward to seeing what the catalogue feature would have looked like, knowing how good PM is. 

[Luiz Muzzi]

Neither am I (a native speaker of English)...
I don't quite understand what is meant by photo editing solutions in an editorial direction...
Anyway, I learned to trust Photo Mechanic people as if I knew them personally.
So I will get Version 5, that I assume will be rather improved and packed of new things and patiently wait for the Catalogue version. I would rather wait for a better product then have problems with a rushed announcement. I am not disappointed with the personnel, only with the news.
Regards,

-Luiz Muzzi

[Franz Dur]

I bought PM over a year ago, to help me standardize my download/ingestion workflow. I have Nikon and Panasonic bodies and was surprised how easy it was to set it up to write metadata into the NEF for the Nikons and into an XMP sidecar for the Pana. There are details I don't like but all in all it is very reliable and predictible, no bad surprise ever.

I use since years a dedicated cataloguer so I am in no hurry at all to see the one linked to PM5, in fact I will probably not switch.

So count me as one not disapointed customer, in fact rather happy and patient. 

Francis

[adrianlambert]

Not disappointed at all. I'm sick of software that is barely beta and loaded with flaws being sold as stable. I've had minor gripes with this company but in this regard CB are doing everything right in postponing this release. Cataloging software NEEDS to be as stable as absolutely possible. People should keep on keeping on and rest assured in the knowledge that these frustrations would pale into insignificance when compared with the frustrations of having to suffer another tin pot cataloging solution. I'm as keen as mustard to get my hands on this as I'm yet to find a satisfactory solution but for the love of god CB, work hard and get it right. I'm sure that's what you are doing. I wish there were more developers that weren't afraid to piss a few people off in the name of quality.

[Richard Costin]

Here here.
Of course it would be great if it was out now, but come on guys; get some perspective. It's a piece of software that will help you manage photos, nothing that will kill you to wait a little longer.

I dare say most of the more vocal people here would be the first to rant even more if they got their hands on it and it was buggy. By all means vocalise your disappointments and concerns, that's a good thing. But perspective please.

Richard.

Not disappointed at all. I'm sick of software that is barely beta and loaded with flaws being sold as stable. I've had minor gripes with this company but in this regard CB are doing everything right in postponing this release. Cataloging software NEEDS to be as stable as absolutely possible. People should keep on keeping on and rest assured in the knowledge that these frustrations would pale into insignificance when compared with the frustrations of having to suffer another tin pot cataloging solution. I'm as keen as mustard to get my hands on this as I'm yet to find a satisfactory solution but for the love of god CB, work hard and get it right. I'm sure that's what you are doing. I wish there were more developers that weren't afraid to piss a few people off in the name of quality.

[Primoz]

Personally I'm not dissapointed at all either. In all this years I'm CameraBits client, I have only good things to say about them, and especially Kirk. Every single thing I (and few others asked) through these years, was fulfilled, and fast. Every new version that came out was rock solid, and for anyone working on tight deadlines (unfortunately I do), this counts a lot. There's nothing worse then have crashing program when someone is all over you, why photos are still not in. With PM this was never problem, and PM is one of very very few programs, I dare to install first day it's out on production machines.
PM5 is not out yet? Well bad luck. Can huge majority of us do our work with 4.6.something? I believe so. I also believe v5 will have some great features, but we really can't wait for another few days/weeks/months for it? If we all managed to get things done till now, I don't see reason why all of a sudden this is not possible anymore, and we need to be all over CameraBits because of this. I rather wait for few months to get PM5 and know that I can install it on production machines without worrying what will be when I will be on worse deadline ever, then get PM5 tomorrow, and it will be constantly crashing.
If someone is delaying purchase of cataloging software for years, waiting for CB's software, then I guess you guys really don't need it all that bad. Sure when this thing will come out, I will check it, and if it will fit us, we will most likely buy it. But until then, I'm perfectly happy with our proprietary software, and once again I don't see reason why to be all over CB guys for not being on time.
So let's give these guys a bit of slack. They work hard, and they do damn good job.

[MitchWojnarowicz]

I've been using PM since 2003.

As a full time pro I still rely heavily on the software in my workflow, both on the road and at home base.

I'm eagerly awaiting V5 with cool new stuff.  (Especially a spiffy new splash screen.  Really tired of the Athens screen guys ...)

I'm in semi patched together limbo with my archive as nothing I've used has given me the power and flexibility I need to manage a couple hundred K of images for hundreds of clients.  I especially need to manage offline resources as I do not spin my 12 archive hard drives 24/7.  So yeah, I'm disappointed that the rock solid company who is a partner in my business isn't going to be able to help me out on my arbitrary schedule.

Keep doing what you do.  Thanks for your work. Thanks for being "there" with me.

I'll be here when you're ready to give me something new.

[Kevin M. Cox]

You guys crack me up. This is why some companies are so secretive and don't share any information at all about upcoming products.

I think Primoz Jeroncic summed it up pretty well. Camera Bits is awesome. They produce a great product that helps me get my job done on deadline and have for years. Their support is first rate. I bought my current copy of PM almost three years ago and I'm still able to use the most current version. How many other software titles will let you do that?

Am I looking forward to the catalog? Yes. Have we held off on making a purchase at the newspaper because we're waiting for it? Yes. Am I mad it isn't out yet? No.

No one here has paid any money to Camera Bits for a catalog yet. It isn't like you paid for something and they failed to deliver. They announced a future product that got us all excited and have hit a few delays. I personally think we should be thanking them that they are taking their time instead of rushing a buggy product to market simply to make some money. There are plenty of companies who do things like that.

[pwp]

Sure it would be nice if it was all finished and available. But Camera Bits has a great reputation, and it would be suicide to release V5 & Catalog until it's fully ready for prime-time. Take your time guys, and release it all when you've got it completely right.

PW

[NeilR]

I have 300K images cataloged in another catalog app.  It took a lot of blood, sweat and tears to get that pile of images cataloged.

One thing I can say with absolute certainty is that no one wants a not ready for prime time cataloging app.   It's just too much work and machine time to end up with a less than perfect database.  And finding problems, and the reasons, and the resulting work-arounds is not easy.

As a single user, I wasn't initially excited about the fact that the cataloger would be multi-user.  But after thinking about it, I've come to realize that with a large database there may be huge advantages.  For example, I have a lot of un-done work in my image catalog simply because it is single user and if I did all the "batch" processing that I want to do I would never actually get any access to my images  .  It would be nice to have a server or other machine to do that work while I can still access the catalog.  So this feature is probably worth the wait, even for those that might not think they need it.

[Hayo Baan]

I have 300K images cataloged in another catalog app.  It took a lot of blood, sweat and tears to get that pile of images cataloged.

One thing I can say with absolute certainty is that no one wants a not ready for prime time cataloging app.   It's just too much work and machine time to end up with a less than perfect database.  And finding problems, and the reasons, and the resulting work-arounds is not easy.

Absolutely! However, if you have embedded all the meta data you added in the cataloguing software in the files themselves, you at least always retain that. Also making a migration to another system much easier. Whether or not your software alows for embedding sufficient info is another question though…

As a single user, I wasn't initially excited about the fact that the cataloger would be multi-user.  But after thinking about it, I've come to realize that with a large database there may be huge advantages.  For example, I have a lot of un-done work in my image catalog simply because it is single user and if I did all the "batch" processing that I want to do I would never actually get any access to my images  .  It would be nice to have a server or other machine to do that work while I can still access the catalog.  So this feature is probably worth the wait, even for those that might not think they need it.

This is an interesting view! I'm (mostly) single user too, but sometimes it would be nice to be able to work on the same catalogue from two machines (e.g., have your assistant/partner access the images simultaneously).

Oh, and I'm sure PM5 is going to be worth the wait; even if you don't plan on using the cataloguing functionality, PM5 will have many great improvements for you! (no, sorry, can't tell you more…)

[Woodie]

Absolutely! However, if you have embedded all the meta data you added in the cataloguing software in the files themselves, you at least always retain that. Also making a migration to another system much easier. Whether or not your software alows for embedding sufficient info is another question though…

You are so right about embedded meta data.  I started cataloging with iMatch which fortunately will embed data in NEF files as well as other raw formats and jpg files.  I later switched to IDimager which also plays well with NEF files and read the embedded meta data with no problems.  I do most of my meta data input in PM now but still use IDimager for cataloging. I've been waiting as so many have for PM's catalog app in hopes it will be well integrated with the current PM features and make life a little simpler than mixing and matching applications.

[NeilR]

You are so right about embedded meta data.  I started cataloging with iMatch which fortunately will embed data in NEF files as well as other raw formats and jpg files.  I later switched to IDimager which also plays well with NEF files and read the embedded meta data with no problems.  I do most of my meta data input in PM now but still use IDimager for cataloging. I've been waiting as so many have for PM's catalog app in hopes it will be well integrated with the current PM features and make life a little simpler than mixing and matching applications.

I'm also using iMatch.  I have never let iMatch embed data in the image files; always the XMP sidecars.  My fuzzy plan would be to try to do it with the sidecar files.  I can't test it until I have a target catalog app to move into.  The last thing I want to do is have that app (any app) update all 300,000 of my image files while I'm on the way out the door.  Just being cautious, and something I've never seriously tested.

Interestingly, iMatch users have been waiting for a new release longer than Camerabits has been seriously talking about a catalog app  .  An interesting horse race.  At least 4 years now.  Both apps seem to be about in the same stage now.

I figure any catalog app will probably load 20-60 raw files per hour.  That's 80-240 hours of machine time for me, and it is unlikely that the entire thing can be done in one slug.   It could take a month, all said and done.  Not an exciting prospect.  But I'm patiently awaiting what one or both comes up with to see if it solves the issues I have with iMatch.   We'll have to see the load performance for the PM version- I'm just basing my numbers on what I know, with an optimistic best case based on more efficient handling (which would not surprise me at all).

[Andrew]

20-40 raws per hour seems a bit pessimistic.  Where do you get that number from?  LR4 is like a snail compared to PM, but even it is much faster than that.

[NeilR]

20-40 raws per hour seems a bit pessimistic.  Where do you get that number from?  LR4 is like a snail compared to PM, but even it is much faster than that.

Sorry... I meant 20-40 per minute, and the 80-240 hour estimate was based on that (20/minute = 250 hours)

Edit:  I would need 60/minute to get the job done in 80 hours, which I suspect might be a tough number to hit. 

My rate in iMatch is 15-20 12mpx raw files per minute.  But that is on a dual core laptop that is likely wimpier than most machines used here.