Family Photo Project

[ChuckTexas]

Hello all!

I have been tasked from Family Members on scanning, cataloging and generally maintaining 10,000 + photos for our family. I've spent some time going through posts here in the forum and a great deal of talent is obvious and support from staff is encouraging.

My experience so far has been experimenting with Picasa and  Windows Photo Gallery on a Windows 7, two workstation LAN to try and form a workflow and tagging hierarchy. Based on great reviews of Photo Mechanic 5, I have installed the trial recently and looks very promising as I believe my biggest challenge is the handling of metadata (tags, locations, etc) & retaining/writing this information to the actual files. All photo scans have been in JPEG 300 DPI files and for the time being I don't intend to do much editing of the photo files other than cropping & straightening.

Keeping in mind that I have based this on my trials with WPG & Picasa, the problems I have noticed so far:

1) The metadata structure doesn't seem to truly "live with the file" when viewing a file that the data being entered in use WPG or Picasa doesn't appear in the other programs metadata information fields (in their interfaces at least). For instance People Tags, Caption, Descriptive Tags, Geo Tags. Not sure if it's my "Newbie" lack of understanding or expectation or the confusion on whether the info is only in a database or not truly with the file. Likewise on "first blush" this data does not appear in Photo Mechanic either?

2)  I have found in both Picasa & WPG that, when using the software on the LAN "client" workstation (i.e. accessing the photo files on the workstation actually having the files), that any modifications to the metadata doesn't seem to writing to the actual file. I'm guessing that the problem is that each workstation is working with it's own local database and the information is not "being shared" or "written" from one workstation to the other.

3) As in #2, the tag hierarchy I have tested seems to be suffering the same problem on the LAN as the tag hierarchy is not displayed identically (or at all) on the other workstation.

In my "Google" investigation, I'm not sure that this type of solution is not available in this product category or that maybe I should be looking at a Digital Asset Management (DAM) solution that appears to be more collaborative in nature. Unfortunately, the DAM solutions I've seen are quite expensive and beyond my budget for this project. I had hoped that I could do the initial file cataloging of these files and at some point could upload to a "cloud solution" where my "remote" family could then help with the "fleshing out" of the who, what, when & where of these photos and then save for posterity.   

In advance, I appreciate all you "pro's" patience with this "newbie" and my lack of the correct terminology in your field in my above descriptions. I'd be thrilled with any suggestions, explanations, insights, etc. on my project. I'd obviously be happy to provide any additional information that may better explain my project. I'm actually pretty proficient in managing the Windows ecosystem and not afraid of some labor in trying to make this happen, but a programmer I'm not!

I will be monitoring this thread and will try to be prompt with my replies to your gracious inputs.

Thanks,

ChuckTexas 
   

[Kirk Baker]

Chuck,

I have been tasked from Family Members on scanning, cataloging and generally maintaining 10,000 + photos for our family. I've spent some time going through posts here in the forum and a great deal of talent is obvious and support from staff is encouraging.

My experience so far has been experimenting with Picasa and  Windows Photo Gallery on a Windows 7, two workstation LAN to try and form a workflow and tagging hierarchy. Based on great reviews of Photo Mechanic 5, I have installed the trial recently and looks very promising as I believe my biggest challenge is the handling of metadata (tags, locations, etc) & retaining/writing this information to the actual files. All photo scans have been in JPEG 300 DPI files and for the time being I don't intend to do much editing of the photo files other than cropping & straightening.

Keeping in mind that I have based this on my trials with WPG & Picasa, the problems I have noticed so far:

1) The metadata structure doesn't seem to truly "live with the file" when viewing a file that the data being entered in use WPG or Picasa doesn't appear in the other programs metadata information fields (in their interfaces at least). For instance People Tags, Caption, Descriptive Tags, Geo Tags. Not sure if it's my "Newbie" lack of understanding or expectation or the confusion on whether the info is only in a database or not truly with the file. Likewise on "first blush" this data does not appear in Photo Mechanic either?

If you post a sample file and tell me what metadata you expect the file to have within it, I'll look into the file and see if the metadata has indeed made its way into the file itself.

When it comes to JPEGs Photo Mechanic always writes metadata directly to a file (JPEGs are always self-contained) so all programs that are capable of working with current metadata standards (EXIF, IPTC, IPTC4XMP) should see the changes made by Photo Mechanic.

2)  I have found in both Picasa & WPG that, when using the software on the LAN "client" workstation (i.e. accessing the photo files on the workstation actually having the files), that any modifications to the metadata doesn't seem to writing to the actual file. I'm guessing that the problem is that each workstation is working with it's own local database and the information is not "being shared" or "written" from one workstation to the other.

3) As in #2, the tag hierarchy I have tested seems to be suffering the same problem on the LAN as the tag hierarchy is not displayed identically (or at all) on the other workstation.

In my "Google" investigation, I'm not sure that this type of solution is not available in this product category or that maybe I should be looking at a Digital Asset Management (DAM) solution that appears to be more collaborative in nature. Unfortunately, the DAM solutions I've seen are quite expensive and beyond my budget for this project. I had hoped that I could do the initial file cataloging of these files and at some point could upload to a "cloud solution" where my "remote" family could then help with the "fleshing out" of the who, what, when & where of these photos and then save for posterity.   

Photo Mechanic will always update the file where it resides.  It doesn't matter if the file is local or on a LAN, but it does have to be on a file system that is directly accessible, and is writable.

I don't know what the other two apps you've listed do when you make metadata changes so I can't speak to their suitability for your project.

-Kirk

[ChuckTexas]

Kirk:

Thanks for the quick reply!

Attached files with metadata and the origin included in file name:
1) Using Windows Photo Gallery software
2) iPhone imported.

I have not included a file that has been edited using Google Picasa as it uses actual lat/long for geotag as does the iPhone copy, whereas WPG uses a generic location tag (city, state, country). Additionally Picasa use a different field for Caption.

Looking at photos using PM5 only shows some of the metadata. Appears to me that all current metadata is not "mapped" to same/any fields on either file to fields in PM5? This is what I'm trying to understand. How to have the data that is currently contained in files on our system will can be used in PM5. These files have not been "ingested" so maybe that is the problem?

Also, as I continue to look at the metadata philosophy, I get more confused. It seems that there is numerous types/versions e.g. EXIF, IPTCC, etc, etc) of metadata depending on which software is used to catalog files. There are file properties/metadata fields that are inherently built into Win 7 file system that would make a "mapping" system useful and have a certain sense of comfort that the schema would last. At first blush it seems that at this point, the "safest route" may be to stick to using the "tag field hierarchy" only, as it will accommodate any type and amount of data, writes to the file and any photo software/operating system will be able to read. For example, the camera info fields are obviously very beneficial to you "pros", but really not pertinent to my project as the bulk of my files as they are scanned.

As I re-read my above reply, I realize that it is more than a bit disjointed, reflecting my confusion on metadata. With the "rapid technology cycles", I just want to make sure that all the extensive effort required on this project for identifying the who, what when & where origins of these photo files will not go for naught.

Thanks for your patience!

ChuckTexas

PS. Can I also confirm that using either workstation on our LAN will write the data to the actual file (i.e. that it will not just simply live in the local workstation database)   

       




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[Kirk Baker]

Chuck,

Attached files with metadata and the origin included in file name:
1) Using Windows Photo Gallery software
2) iPhone imported.

Thanks for the samples.  Could you tell me what metadata you expect to see in your samples, (example strings of text would be best) so that I can look into the files to see if what you're expecting to see actually exists in the files?

Looking at photos using PM5 only shows some of the metadata. Appears to me that all current metadata is not "mapped" to same/any fields on either file to fields in PM5?

Without knowing what metadata you're talking about (examples please!) I cannot hazard a guess as to why PM5 isn't showing your expected data.

This is what I'm trying to understand. How to have the data that is currently contained in files on our system will can be used in PM5. These files have not been "ingested" so maybe that is the problem?

No.  Images do not have to be Ingested first for PM5 to work with them.

Also, as I continue to look at the metadata philosophy, I get more confused. It seems that there is numerous types/versions e.g. EXIF, IPTCC, etc, etc) of metadata depending on which software is used to catalog files. There are file properties/metadata fields that are inherently built into Win 7 file system that would make a "mapping" system useful and have a certain sense of comfort that the schema would last. At first blush it seems that at this point, the "safest route" may be to stick to using the "tag field hierarchy" only, as it will accommodate any type and amount of data, writes to the file and any photo software/operating system will be able to read. For example, the camera info fields are obviously very beneficial to you "pros", but really not pertinent to my project as the bulk of my files as they are scanned.

IPTC was the original metadata format and is still supported by PM5 and many other apps.
XMP is the current metadata format and has much more room to grow to support the needs of photographers now and in the future.
EXIF is just camera shooting data for the most part and you can fairly ignore it for your described needs.

As I re-read my above reply, I realize that it is more than a bit disjointed, reflecting my confusion on metadata. With the "rapid technology cycles", I just want to make sure that all the extensive effort required on this project for identifying the who, what when & where origins of these photo files will not go for naught.

I suggest putting your metadata in both IPTC and XMP.  You can set PM5 to do this in the IPTC/XMP section of the Preferences dialog.

PS. Can I also confirm that using either workstation on our LAN will write the data to the actual file (i.e. that it will not just simply live in the local workstation database)

Yes.  But make sure that you don't work on the same file simultaneously with both workstations or data corruption can occur.  This is not a problem only for Photo Mechanic.  It's just not possible on a LAN to tell if some other app is modifying a file at any given time.

-Kirk

[Luiz Muzzi]

Hi,
Although it seems you do not have PM installed yet, perhaps you could profit from the reading of its manual that can be found here:
http://wiki.camerabits.com/en/index.php?title=User_Manual_Flat_View
HTH,

-Luiz Muzzi

[ChuckTexas]

Kirk:

1&2) People Tags and Program/Firmware were missing from Windows Photo Gallery file in PM5. iPhone file just had info imported & I guess showed whatever was in original iPhone photo.

3) So ingesting has nothing to do with seeing metadata supposedly stored in files?

4 & 5) Thanks for the explanation on types and PM5 able to work with those standards. On Win 7 comment, is there a way to work with that file structure when it comes to Win7 built-in file fields (e.g. mapping)?

6) Great on accessing from either workstation!

7) Another question ... although not much information on your Collaboration announcement, will it be "cloud based"/"SaaS oriented to be logged on without software installed. Hoping to have my family in a position to login/access files from other locations to assist in project.

Thanks,

ChuckTexas

[ChuckTexas]

Luiz:

Legitimate comment. I have watched tutorials and have looked at manual to try to find some of these answers prior to starting this thread. I have a pretty good idea of what my requirements are and they certainly aren't near as robust as what PM5 can do or your requirements as professionals. Sometimes it's the little things that can be important that may stop you (e.g. multiuser, collaboration, etc).     

I am at this point simply trying to evaluate PM5 and interested what its capabilities are prior to embarking on my project. PM5 has a great reputation, but that said there are many, many other possible solutions out there and I'm simply trying to do some due diligence.

Again, that said, I really do appreciate your input!

ChuckTexas   

[Kirk Baker]

Chuck,

1&2) People Tags and Program/Firmware were missing from Windows Photo Gallery file in PM5. iPhone file just had info imported & I guess showed whatever was in original iPhone photo.

Can you give me some of the names of the People?

3) So ingesting has nothing to do with seeing metadata supposedly stored in files?

No.  PM reads the metadata directly from the file each time you browse a folder containing the file.  PM does not have to be the application that 'downloaded' the file from your camera or scanner.

On Win 7 comment, is there a way to work with that file structure when it comes to Win7 built-in file fields (e.g. mapping)?

I do not know if the service that Windows 7 offers has any mapping capability.  I can tell you that we only support the editing of the fields that exist in our IPTC dialogs.

7) Another question ... although not much information on your Collaboration announcement, will it be "cloud based"/"SaaS oriented to be logged on without software installed. Hoping to have my family in a position to login/access files from other locations to assist in project.

That product is not likely to be coming out in the near term as we are focused on getting our Catalog solution completed first.

-Kirk

[ChuckTexas]

Kirk:

1) On Photo Gallery file "James Carey Pritchard; John Gordon Pritchard; Lois Carey Pritchard". On iPhone file John Charles Pritchard; Avery Lewis;Betty June Pritchard". These show up when viewing files in Win7 file properties in field labeled as "people".
 
2) Ingesting ... thanks got it.

3) Got it on IPTC. Appears that both Photo Gallery and iPhone do not comply with that structure as the files when viewed with PM did not have the data. This is ultimately the problem I am trying to figure out so I don't have to deal with "non-compliant" software. I assume that Adobe's products would "play nice" with PM? Just wondering why not a bit more integration with Microsoft file properties/meta. I'm first to agree that MS has a bunch of "warts" but still a "pretty big gorilla". They for sure don't like to see anyone else try to force their standards on them!

4) Collaboration would be very nice for my project, but understand priorities.

Thanks,

ChuckTexas

 

[Kirk Baker]

Chuck,

1) On Photo Gallery file "James Carey Pritchard; John Gordon Pritchard; Lois Carey Pritchard". On iPhone file John Charles Pritchard; Avery Lewis;Betty June Pritchard". These show up when viewing files in Win7 file properties in field labeled as "people".

I see those names in the files you uploaded.  In the "CBP-2013-05; Texas, San Antonio;  Sarah & Robbie Wedding 0375 (iPhone).jpg" file, the people are listed in a "Microsoft Photo" namespace in the XMP metadata.  In the "JLP Photos 02068 (Photo Gallery).jpg" file the people are listed in the Microsoft Photo namespace as rectangular areas along with their names.

3) Got it on IPTC. Appears that both Photo Gallery and iPhone do not comply with that structure as the files when viewed with PM did not have the data. This is ultimately the problem I am trying to figure out so I don't have to deal with "non-compliant" software.

They're writing out XMP metadata just fine.  PM just does not do anything with their data except to preserve it when PM updates the file with the additional metadata you enter.

I assume that Adobe's products would "play nice" with PM?

Yes, very nicely.

Just wondering why not a bit more integration with Microsoft file properties/meta. I'm first to agree that MS has a bunch of "warts" but still a "pretty big gorilla". They for sure don't like to see anyone else try to force their standards on them!

No one to my knowledge has asked us to work with their data, display it, edit it, etc.  I don't think many working pros use the Microsoft Photo Viewer to work with their images.

From what I can tell, their metadata describes people in the photo, and where they're physically located in the photo, which I suppose is nice.  But IPTC/XMP already has the ability to describe persons in the scene so other than the rectangular area where the person appears, Microsoft's data is a duplication of what the IPTC standards folks already offer.

Microsoft made a big push a few years ago to get into photography workflow, going as far as to acquire some popular applications like iView Media Pro and then re-brand them as their own.  Ultimately, they divested themselves of the project (Microsoft Expression suite) and sold off their investment.

-Kirk

[ChuckTexas]

Kirk:

Once again, thanks for your quick reply!

1) RE Names: I must be missing something here. When I use the "Info" icon from the photos, I don't see the names. When you reference "Microsoft Photo namespace", is that something that needs to be loaded differently?

2) RE Metadata for MS Photo: thanks for the observation

3) RE Microsoft Software: thanks for the insights. It's abundantly apparent that PM5 is incredibly more robust than MSPG and a "pro's software". I'm also very disappointed with MS support for their products. Your support, user community, etc are great!

So let me take "a breath" here, study your manual closer and see if I can get my head wrapped around how to "workflow" this project with PM5.

Thanks very much for your help!       

[Hayo Baan]

1) RE Names: I must be missing something here. When I use the "Info" icon from the photos, I don't see the names. When you reference "Microsoft Photo namespace", is that something that needs to be loaded differently?

What Kirk means is that the names are indeed saved into the file by your software, but in a location that can't be used by PhotoMechanic. PhotoMechanic adheres to the standards, but Microsoft obviously does not, in this case. As no one has yet asked for PM to be able to interpret the Microsoft data, it is extremely unlikely PM will ever support it.

All is not lost, though. If you're not afraid of a little command-line usage, there's a very powerful tool called exiftool that is likely to be able to read the MS data and move it to a more standard place. Depending on the actual format of the data (e.g. Inclusion of data other than the names), this may or may not work well (I haven't yet had a chance to examine your files myself).

[ChuckTexas]

Hayo:

Now I understand! I've seen the EXIF Tool in the Forum. Think I'll give it a try with current files that I've used Microsoft Photo Gallery to tag, etc. first and see if I can learn something on my own now that I understand the problem. Any suggestions on standard XMP fields to move (Microsoft's terminologies) People Tags, GeoTag, Caption & Descriptive Tags to?

I'll report back.  Thanks for your help!

ChuckTexas