Author Topic: IPTC/XMP settings  (Read 10332 times)

Offline dagoch

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IPTC/XMP settings
« on: February 18, 2007, 09:42:02 PM »
Is there any documentation on the IPTC/XMP settings panel and the actual implications of each choice?  Or can you offer any recommendations for which settings to use, or how to choose settings appropriate to a given workflow?

I am still formulating my workflow, but I have recently been working mostly in Adobe Bridge, following Peter Krogh's suggestions in his DAM Book.  I would like to switch over to using PM for ingesting, renaming, sorting, and keywording files, because I find it a lot faster and like how it can work with camera RAW & JPEG pairs as a single file.  But I am still evaluating RAW converters and cataloguing software, so i want to maintain maximum compatibility in the way my metadata is attached to my original files.  I can't figure out which settings would be best for this.

Thanks.

-Dave

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: IPTC/XMP settings
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2007, 07:56:26 AM »
Dave,

Is there any documentation on the IPTC/XMP settings panel and the actual implications of each choice?  Or can you offer any recommendations for which settings to use, or how to choose settings appropriate to a given workflow?

I am still formulating my workflow, but I have recently been working mostly in Adobe Bridge, following Peter Krogh's suggestions in his DAM Book.  I would like to switch over to using PM for ingesting, renaming, sorting, and keywording files, because I find it a lot faster and like how it can work with camera RAW & JPEG pairs as a single file.  But I am still evaluating RAW converters and cataloguing software, so i want to maintain maximum compatibility in the way my metadata is attached to my original files.  I can't figure out which settings would be best for this.

Please download the full manual here

Here is a screen shot of the IPTC/XMP tab set to work best with Bridge/ACR:


[attachment deleted by admin]

Offline dagoch

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Re: IPTC/XMP settings
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2007, 08:56:38 AM »
Thanks for this info -- it's definitely helpful.

But I'm actually trying to figure out the best settings for optimal compatibility with many other software packages.  As i mentioned, I haven't fully settled on a workflow, as I'm still evaluating raw converters and cataloguing software.  In the meantime I want to be able to add metadata to my image files in such a way as to maximize the compatibility with the software I'm evaluating, and whichever software i eventually select.  I know that's a tall order, but I'm wondering if there's a least-common-denominator approach to applying metadata?  I'm not relying on any obsolete software, but may end up using two different RAW converters (as I use two different brands of cameras) in addition to a cataloguing solution (probably Portfolio, but possibly iView or something else I haven't found yet) and of course Photoshop for final editing.

Also, eventually I'm going to want full round-trip compatibility, so I can edit metadata in PM, or my cataloguing software, or Photoshop, and have all the others pick up the changes.  Is that even possible?

For example, I've just done a little experimenting with metadata compatibility between PM and Lightroom, and it seems that the settings you've provided above allow me to add metadata in PM that Lightroom can read, but if I add metadata in Lightroom, I need two additional steps to make that metadata available in PM (in Lightroom: Photo->XMP Sidecar->Synchronize XMP, and then in PM: Tools->Update XMP/IPTC->read IPTC/XMP from RAW).  Is there a way to make this simpler? 

And finally, there are a number of metadata fields available in the Adobe applications which do not seem to be available in PM.  These include: copyright url, rights usage terms, photographer email (and contact info).  I think I read somewhere that the PM IPTC dialog is not customizable.  Is there any way to get at these fields through PM?

Thanks again for your help.  I love your software, by the way.  I'm just trying to figure out how it will best fit in my workflow.

-Dave


Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: IPTC/XMP settings
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2007, 09:16:47 AM »
Dave,

But I'm actually trying to figure out the best settings for optimal compatibility with many other software packages.  As i mentioned, I haven't fully settled on a workflow, as I'm still evaluating raw converters and cataloguing software.  In the meantime I want to be able to add metadata to my image files in such a way as to maximize the compatibility with the software I'm evaluating, and whichever software i eventually select.  I know that's a tall order, but I'm wondering if there's a least-common-denominator approach to applying metadata?  I'm not relying on any obsolete software, but may end up using two different RAW converters (as I use two different brands of cameras) in addition to a cataloguing solution (probably Portfolio, but possibly iView or something else I haven't found yet) and of course Photoshop for final editing.

Also, eventually I'm going to want full round-trip compatibility, so I can edit metadata in PM, or my cataloguing software, or Photoshop, and have all the others pick up the changes.  Is that even possible?

Generally you're going to have to get the cataloging application to synchronize the additions you made in the catalog back into the files.  Depending on the cataloging application this may mean that you will have limited capability of updating the data how you want it to be.  For instance, some apps may not deal with XMP so they will only write out IPTC, and many of them won't embed IPTC or XMP inside RAW files.  Some may or may not support XMP sidecar files.

BTW, we are going to have a cataloging module for Photo Mechanic at some point.

Quote from: dagoch
For example, I've just done a little experimenting with metadata compatibility between PM and Lightroom, and it seems that the settings you've provided above allow me to add metadata in PM that Lightroom can read, but if I add metadata in Lightroom, I need two additional steps to make that metadata available in PM (in Lightroom: Photo->XMP Sidecar->Synchronize XMP, and then in PM: Tools->Update XMP/IPTC->read IPTC/XMP from RAW).  Is there a way to make this simpler? 

I'm guessing that you're shooting in RAW+JPEG and you're updating the metadata for the RAW files in Lightroom which isn't updating the metadata in your JPEGs.  So when you come back to Photo Mechanic and you are viewing your photos as RAW+JPEG, Photo Mechanic uses the JPEG for metadata read purposes and since the JPEG hasn't been updated, you don't see your changes until you use the Update tool.  I'll have to think on that one.  But in the meantime, let me know if I have guessed right.

Quote from: dagoch
And finally, there are a number of metadata fields available in the Adobe applications which do not seem to be available in PM.  These include: copyright url, rights usage terms, photographer email (and contact info).  I think I read somewhere that the PM IPTC dialog is not customizable.  Is there any way to get at these fields through PM?

All of those fields are available in the upcoming 4.5 release.

Quote from: dagoch
Thanks again for your help.  I love your software, by the way.  I'm just trying to figure out how it will best fit in my workflow.

Great.  We'll get something worked out for you.

-Kirk

Offline dagoch

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Re: IPTC/XMP settings
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2007, 10:25:40 AM »
Kirk,

Thanks for the quick reply.  I really appreciate your taking the time to address these questions.

Generally you're going to have to get the cataloging application to synchronize the additions you made in the catalog back into the files.  Depending on the cataloging application this may mean that you will have limited capability of updating the data how you want it to be.  For instance, some apps may not deal with XMP so they will only write out IPTC, and many of them won't embed IPTC or XMP inside RAW files.  Some may or may not support XMP sidecar files.

So it sounds like that's another criterion I need to pay close attention to in the cataloguing applications I'm evaluating.  I'll have to see what I can find out about how they work.

In the meantime, I'm still wondering if there's a good rule of thumb, lowest-common-denominator approach for the IPTC/XMP settings.  It seems that if I want to maintain full compatibility with the Adobe software, the settings you provided are the best.  But that means I need to stick with software that's aware of the XMP sidecar files, and it sounds like that's still fairly rare.  Right?  Would it make sense to create the XMP sidecar files and also embed IPTC directly into the RAW files?  Would this make the metadata available to the broadest selection of other software?  Would it be feasible to maintain the metadata in two different forms like this?

The Photo Mechanic cataloguing module sounds really appealing.  Is there a rough ETA for that?  And do you have rough specs for it?  Is it being designed to handle very large collections of images?

I'm guessing that you're shooting in RAW+JPEG and you're updating the metadata for the RAW files in Lightroom which isn't updating the metadata in your JPEGs.  So when you come back to Photo Mechanic and you are viewing your photos as RAW+JPEG, Photo Mechanic uses the JPEG for metadata read purposes and since the JPEG hasn't been updated, you don't see your changes until you use the Update tool.  I'll have to think on that one.  But in the meantime, let me know if I have guessed right.

Yes, I'm shooting RAW+JPEG, and your interpretation is the same one I had come to.

This raises another question: suppose I do have a file with multiple metadata entries -- for example, embedded IPTC data and a sidecar XMP file, as I propose above.  Will PM automatically make sure these are synchronized, or is there any way to do that?

All of those fields are available in the upcoming 4.5 release.

I'll look forward to that. 

Thanks again.

-Dave

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: IPTC/XMP settings
« Reply #5 on: February 21, 2007, 10:41:03 AM »
Dave,

Generally you're going to have to get the cataloging application to synchronize the additions you made in the catalog back into the files.  Depending on the cataloging application this may mean that you will have limited capability of updating the data how you want it to be.  For instance, some apps may not deal with XMP so they will only write out IPTC, and many of them won't embed IPTC or XMP inside RAW files.  Some may or may not support XMP sidecar files.

So it sounds like that's another criterion I need to pay close attention to in the cataloguing applications I'm evaluating.  I'll have to see what I can find out about how they work.

In the meantime, I'm still wondering if there's a good rule of thumb, lowest-common-denominator approach for the IPTC/XMP settings.  It seems that if I want to maintain full compatibility with the Adobe software, the settings you provided are the best.  But that means I need to stick with software that's aware of the XMP sidecar files, and it sounds like that's still fairly rare.  Right?  Would it make sense to create the XMP sidecar files and also embed IPTC directly into the RAW files?  Would this make the metadata available to the broadest selection of other software?  Would it be feasible to maintain the metadata in two different forms like this?

Yes, but some applications have very naive parsers for the RAW files that they process.  Embedding any metadata in RAW files can cause those applications to have issues with the RAW files.  You'd just have to experiment.  Note that our modifications to RAW files can be undone completely, allowing you to strip out the embedded metadata and get back to your original file.

Quote from: dagoch
The Photo Mechanic cataloguing module sounds really appealing.  Is there a rough ETA for that?  And do you have rough specs for it?  Is it being designed to handle very large collections of images?

It is in the planning stages.  It will be capable of extremely large databases since the back-end will be an industrial strength database engine.

Quote from: dagoch
I'm guessing that you're shooting in RAW+JPEG and you're updating the metadata for the RAW files in Lightroom which isn't updating the metadata in your JPEGs.  So when you come back to Photo Mechanic and you are viewing your photos as RAW+JPEG, Photo Mechanic uses the JPEG for metadata read purposes and since the JPEG hasn't been updated, you don't see your changes until you use the Update tool.  I'll have to think on that one.  But in the meantime, let me know if I have guessed right.

Yes, I'm shooting RAW+JPEG, and your interpretation is the same one I had come to.

This raises another question: suppose I do have a file with multiple metadata entries -- for example, embedded IPTC data and a sidecar XMP file, as I propose above.  Will PM automatically make sure these are synchronized, or is there any way to do that?

Yes, it does that already.  In 4.5 though since there are new fields that cannot be represented in IPTC (things like the contact information fields) then only the XMP (sidecar and/or embedded) will have all of the fields.

-Kirk

Offline dagoch

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Re: IPTC/XMP settings
« Reply #6 on: February 21, 2007, 02:38:11 PM »
Thanks Kirk!  That's extremely helpful.

I was hoping to hear that your catalog module was just about ready for beta-testing, but it sounds like it's a bit further off.  I hope that when it is available it will be easy to switch to from whatever I choose now.  I have this feeling that it's going to be just what I'm looking for.

One last question, in the meantime: as I'm experimenting with different software, I'm probably going to want to play around with the different ways of writing the IPTC/XMP info to my files (and eventually I'll want to go back and standardize all of the files I've already added metadata to).  If I have added the metadata to a set of files using one configuration of the IPTC/XMP settings, and then I want to try a different configuration of the settings, what's the simplest way to rewrite the metadata using the new settings? 

I assume that whenever I modify the metadata of a file, it will rewrite the metadata using the current settings.  In the message thread titled "I Lose Color Classification After Edit" (http://forums.camerabits.com/index.php?topic=107.0) I think you suggest that tagging or untagging a group of photos will cause their metadata to be rewritten.  Is that correct?  Would that work for this case as well?

Thanks again.

Best,
Dave

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: IPTC/XMP settings
« Reply #7 on: February 21, 2007, 03:05:47 PM »
Dave,

One last question, in the meantime: as I'm experimenting with different software, I'm probably going to want to play around with the different ways of writing the IPTC/XMP info to my files (and eventually I'll want to go back and standardize all of the files I've already added metadata to).  If I have added the metadata to a set of files using one configuration of the IPTC/XMP settings, and then I want to try a different configuration of the settings, what's the simplest way to rewrite the metadata using the new settings? 

I assume that whenever I modify the metadata of a file, it will rewrite the metadata using the current settings.  In the message thread titled "I Lose Color Classification After Edit" (http://forums.camerabits.com/index.php?topic=107.0) I think you suggest that tagging or untagging a group of photos will cause their metadata to be rewritten.  Is that correct?  Would that work for this case as well?

As long as you have set the "Save/load tag and color class in IPTC/XMP" preference to something other than "Never".  See the 'Files' tab of the Preferences dialog.

-Kirk