Better Collection editing/organizing

[tgray]

It'd be nice to have more control over collections.  I'm sure these features are coming.  The comments below are for organizing collections in the left hand pane - I'm not talking about organizing the contents of the collection.

- Ability to delete a sub-collection.  Currently it appears to delete everything all the way up to the top-level collection.
- Drag and drop sub-collections into other top level collections, etc.
- Smart collections based on search criteria?

[JD McDowell]

I agree on the data driven categories. Being able to create a category that automatically updates based on camera model, or location, etc. would be nice.

Also 100% agree on the drag and drop.

Have you had any issues with the math (number of items) shown on the categories getting out of whack? This may be related to another issue with categories and multiple catalogs, but I've had categories with sub-categories that have only say 4 shots in total (i.e. 2 in one sub-category, 2 in the other) but the top level reads some other number, like 7 or 8.

I've been creating a top level category, then once I have that sheet showing with those shots I create sub categories and add the shots from the top level to the sub levels. Seems to have worked so far. I haven't tried deleting them yet.

[BillB]

It'd be nice to have more control over collections.

I was going to create a Feature Request on this very topic, but it appears to already be in motion. I'll piggyback.

I agree with the perspectives presented here. The concepts introduced with the current Category and Collection functions are great additions to PM, but they hit quicksand as one realizes that although a structure of Collections can be readily created, it cannot be modified! Just as any application database evolves structurally with application and business needs, a catalog structure here needs the same flexibility. To inevitably have to delete "tables" and "relationships" (in DB terms) and move all their contents manually is not a workable prospect.

The current implementation would be dramatically enhanced, and made substantially more useful, with the ability to alter the relationships between collections, whether they be top or sub level collections. Drag and drop is a common means for managing relationships as this, and would be very effective here. An alternative option I've seen would be a "move" function on the context menu allowing one to move any collection beneath any another or to the top. A drag-and-drop solution would be optimal.

- Ability to delete a sub-collection.  Currently it appears to delete everything all the way up to the top-level collection.

I can't say I've encountered this problem. I am able to delete sub-collections individually.

- Smart collections based on search criteria

Almost as important as the collection relationships issue above. Not quite- but close! The ability to initially create or populate a collection from search results would be highly desirable. A step further would allow for the ability to maintain a collection's contents via an active criteria definition (smart collections).

[syncrasy]

+1 for manual control over Collections list organization. Collections are at the core of my DAM (Media Pro) workflow. For example, I use collections (aka Catalog Sets) to maintain 100s of web galleries for nature/wildlife whose taxonomic hierarchical structure mirrors the galleries on my web site. I also use collections to segregate various other types of collections of images (stock vs client vs personal use). In Media Pro I can modify (rearrange/add/remove/edit) the collection items easily and can manage the hierarchy via drag and drop.

Of course, going hand-in-hand with this request is the ability to manually change (and have PM+ remember) the order of the images within a Collection (this has been requested elsewhere). Regular (non-smart) DAM collections are by definition manually curated groups of images; being able to control the organization/order of both the list of Collections and their contents is a necessity. For ease of use, drag and drop is preferable to a menu driven "move" function.

Regarding "drag and drop"...

I know Kirk has stated that, as a matter of design philosophy, PM+ currently shuns "drag and drop" (favoring menu-driven moves). I understand the motivation for this philosophy, especially for the case where dragging and dropping groups of thumbnails into the wrong folder can create headaches—or disasters if the action can't be undone. Perhaps PM+ could adopt a compromise, such as a selective drag and drop philosophy wherein drag and drop is prohibited for the most disaster-prone situations (e.g., moving thumbnails into folders) but allowed for less-risky situations (e.g., manually sorting thumbnails within the current Contact Sheet and/or Collection, and of course, manually rearranging the items in the Collections list). I think the rules for selective drag and drop could be fairly straightforward (e.g., disallow dragging/dropping between the Contact Sheet area and the Organizer area), but perhaps this would be technically difficult to implement, or might create even more usability problems, in which case I'd have to suggest that Camera Bits rethink its current "no drag and drop" philosophy and allow drag and drop universally in the interest of greater usability (acknowledging the risk for certain situations).

[bcarlsonphoto]

+1 from me too.

After not being able to drag and drop I thought, "what gives!" after which I read some forums. I understand the predicament PM is in but I hope it's changed. To me it seems like the easy way around the fear of doing something irreparable is to make a system like MP (I'm sure they hate MP being brought up so much...). When you have dragged and dropped an image onto any field in MP it turns yellow, letting you know the said image now has that attribute linked to it. If you mistakenly drag & drop you're going to know it because it will be highlighted. This system is also very useful for seeing the attributes of an image quickly when in thumbnail view.

+1 for manual control over Collections list organization. Collections are at the core of my DAM (Media Pro) workflow. For example, I use collections (aka Catalog Sets) to maintain 100s of web galleries for nature/wildlife whose taxonomic hierarchical structure mirrors the galleries on my web site. I also use collections to segregate various other types of collections of images (stock vs client vs personal use). In Media Pro I can modify (rearrange/add/remove/edit) the collection items easily and can manage the hierarchy via drag and drop.

Of course, going hand-in-hand with this request is the ability to manually change (and have PM+ remember) the order of the images within a Collection (this has been requested elsewhere). Regular (non-smart) DAM collections are by definition manually curated groups of images; being able to control the organization/order of both the list of Collections and their contents is a necessity. For ease of use, drag and drop is preferable to a menu driven "move" function.

Regarding "drag and drop"...

I know Kirk has stated that, as a matter of design philosophy, PM+ currently shuns "drag and drop" (favoring menu-driven moves). I understand the motivation for this philosophy, especially for the case where dragging and dropping groups of thumbnails into the wrong folder can create headaches—or disasters if the action can't be undone. Perhaps PM+ could adopt a compromise, such as a selective drag and drop philosophy wherein drag and drop is prohibited for the most disaster-prone situations (e.g., moving thumbnails into folders) but allowed for less-risky situations (e.g., manually sorting thumbnails within the current Contact Sheet and/or Collection, and of course, manually rearranging the items in the Collections list). I think the rules for selective drag and drop could be fairly straightforward (e.g., disallow dragging/dropping between the Contact Sheet area and the Organizer area), but perhaps this would be technically difficult to implement, or might create even more usability problems, in which case I'd have to suggest that Camera Bits rethink its current "no drag and drop" philosophy and allow drag and drop universally in the interest of greater usability (acknowledging the risk for certain situations).

[Kirk Baker]

After not being able to drag and drop I thought, "what gives!" after which I read some forums. I understand the predicament PM is in but I hope it's changed. To me it seems like the easy way around the fear of doing something irreparable is to make a system like MP (I'm sure they hate MP being brought up so much...). When you have dragged and dropped an image onto any field in MP it turns yellow, letting you know the said image now has that attribute linked to it. If you mistakenly drag & drop you're going to know it because it will be highlighted. This system is also very useful for seeing the attributes of an image quickly when in thumbnail view.

Actually we don't mind at all users explaining their experiences with other software.  It is useful to us.  Please do.  The only thing we don't like is users promoting another application that competes with our software, I hope that's understandable.  That isn't happening here so feel free to explain what you like about your existing apps and what you don't like about our product.

-Kirk

[bcarlsonphoto]

Haha. Thanks Kirk. I just had this mental image of you guys sitting in some dark room fuming over how we are comparing your hard work to another program. I'm looking for a replacement DAM and really hope PM+ can do the trick.

After not being able to drag and drop I thought, "what gives!" after which I read some forums. I understand the predicament PM is in but I hope it's changed. To me it seems like the easy way around the fear of doing something irreparable is to make a system like MP (I'm sure they hate MP being brought up so much...). When you have dragged and dropped an image onto any field in MP it turns yellow, letting you know the said image now has that attribute linked to it. If you mistakenly drag & drop you're going to know it because it will be highlighted. This system is also very useful for seeing the attributes of an image quickly when in thumbnail view.

Actually we don't mind at all users explaining their experiences with other software.  It is useful to us.  Please do.  The only thing we don't like is users promoting another application that competes with our software, I hope that's understandable.  That isn't happening here so feel free to explain what you like about your existing apps and what you don't like about our product.

-Kirk

[bcarlsonphoto]

I'm assuming complication with drag & drop for PM is everything is written to the files? As opposed to Media Pro which is database driven, thus undoing a mistake is much more simple?

After not being able to drag and drop I thought, "what gives!" after which I read some forums. I understand the predicament PM is in but I hope it's changed. To me it seems like the easy way around the fear of doing something irreparable is to make a system like MP (I'm sure they hate MP being brought up so much...). When you have dragged and dropped an image onto any field in MP it turns yellow, letting you know the said image now has that attribute linked to it. If you mistakenly drag & drop you're going to know it because it will be highlighted. This system is also very useful for seeing the attributes of an image quickly when in thumbnail view.

Actually we don't mind at all users explaining their experiences with other software.  It is useful to us.  Please do.  The only thing we don't like is users promoting another application that competes with our software, I hope that's understandable.  That isn't happening here so feel free to explain what you like about your existing apps and what you don't like about our product.

-Kirk

[Kirk Baker]

I'm assuming complication with drag & drop for PM is everything is written to the files? As opposed to Media Pro which is database driven, thus undoing a mistake is much more simple?

Collections and their organization is purely database driven.

-Kirk

[bcarlsonphoto]

I think I was confused because I'm used to working with Media Pro, where things are not automatically pushed to the files. Whereas when you make changes in PM they are written to files right away (at least when not using the catalog feature...if I'm correct). So I can make all the changes I want in Media Pro and not worry about changing the files until I push the updates to them. I was thinking Media Pro is relying on a database more because it's where most, if not all, of the metadata you've applied to the files lives. Make sense?

Anyway, maybe I'm just horrible at describing my ideas. My main point in responding was to say I agree with tgray & syncrasy, being able to manipulate the collections is a big deal for me. And I am running into the same odd issue tgray is having: deleting a sub (or even sub-sub) collection deletes everything all the way up to the top-level collection. Is this a bug or on purpose?

I have another question. Do metadata changes while made in the navigator instantly reflect in the organizer if the files are included in a catalog?

[Kirk Baker]

I think I was confused because I'm used to working with Media Pro, where things are not automatically pushed to the files. Whereas when you make changes in PM they are written to files right away (at least when not using the catalog feature...if I'm correct). So I can make all the changes I want in Media Pro and not worry about changing the files until I push the updates to them. I was thinking Media Pro is relying on a database more because it's where most, if not all, of the metadata you've applied to the files lives. Make sense?

Anyway, maybe I'm just horrible at describing my ideas. My main point in responding was to say I agree with tgray & syncrasy, being able to manipulate the collections is a big deal for me. And I am running into the same odd issue tgray is having: deleting a sub (or even sub-sub) collection deletes everything all the way up to the top-level collection. Is this a bug or on purpose?

A bug.

I have another question. Do metadata changes while made in the navigator instantly reflect in the organizer if the files are included in a catalog?

The Navigator is just a folder tree.  No metadata changes are made there.

Perhaps you mean a folder-based Contact Sheet tab where you browse and edit thumbnails?  Changes to files that are part of a catalog are reflected in the catalog and organizer.  As for "instantly", no.  But very soon after your changes are made then the catalog is updated with the metadata changes and the Organizer Browse tree and Filter counts should update.  Catalog-based tabs won't automatically refresh their queries however.

-Kirk

[bcarlsonphoto]

Thanks Kirk. Sorry for my lack of understanding of the terminology. Still learning it all. Can you explain what you mean by Catalog-based tabs? Are you referring to tabs opened via the Collections side menu on the very left?

Also, can you point me in the direction of how I can understand the difference in tabs? I notice when double click on a folder in the Collections left it always opens a new tab. But when I double click on a folder while in the Browse tab it doesn't open up a new tab. It opens up that folder in an already existing tab which was open while using Browse. Is this a bug or is there something I'm not understanding about the program?

[Kirk Baker]

Thanks Kirk. Sorry for my lack of understanding of the terminology. Still learning it all. Can you explain what you mean by Catalog-based tabs? Are you referring to tabs opened via the Collections side menu on the very left?

That's OK, the terminology is evolving.  Catalog-based tabs are any Contact Sheet tabs that are opened via interaction with the Catalog UI.  Search/Filter/Browse/Collection interaction.  Folder-based tabs are those that view the contents of a folder which can be opened via the Navigator/Favorites/Drag and Drop from the Finder/Windows Explorer, and the Open command.

Also, can you point me in the direction of how I can understand the difference in tabs? I notice when double click on a folder in the Collections left it always opens a new tab. But when I double click on a folder while in the Browse tab it doesn't open up a new tab. It opens up that folder in an already existing tab which was open while using Browse. Is this a bug or is there something I'm not understanding about the program?

Collections always open their own tab.  The rest reuse tabs (Filter/Browse) and optionally the Search can reuse tabs.

-Kirk

[bcarlsonphoto]

Collections always open their own tab.  The rest reuse tabs (Filter/Browse) and optionally the Search can reuse tabs.

Why is this? Just curious...

[Kirk Baker]

Collections always open their own tab.  The rest reuse tabs (Filter/Browse) and optionally the Search can reuse tabs.

Why is this? Just curious...

Which part are you curious about?  There are two statements.

We reuse tabs on Filter and Browse because there can only ever be one session for each of them.

We don't reuse tabs for Collections because that would make it difficult to work with different collections at the same time.

-Kirk