Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?

[TommyWeir]

Hi all

A long term C1 user and a newbie PM+ user.  I exclusively use C1 with sessions,  in this mode C1 will (in LR parlance) reference files rather than ingest them into a catalog.  The default session folders (which you can customise completely) are really for importing, managing picks and output. You can set your output to wherever you wish.  I wouldn't worry about these default folders if you don't import into the session but already have the files structure you wish on your HD.  I have used a 'browse' session as suggested above to edit existing files.

What I have begun doing with my PM+ catalog is using it to catalog all of my Output folders in my many C1 Session folders.  PM+ can go into a folder structure and only import files from folders you filter to.  So I use it to catalogue the final edited images only scanning the session folders for the contents of my output folders.  It is better than C1 for this purpose for sure.

BTW C1 did a training video on using the two apps together - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeQSob64qlQ

[ODThomas]

EDIT; Just realised this is mentioned in previous post

This might help explain the “dummy session” setup mentioned in previous post. This session does not use the catalog of Capture One

https://youtu.be/JeQSob64qlQ.

Method 2 (Starts around the 26 minutes mark of the video) describes the setup of a “utility session” that lives anywhere you want it and can be ignored, it’s required by Capture One to function, ie it needs to open something. You then use C1 as a file browser/editor.

If you watch the earlier part of the video it explains the “CaptureOne” folder.

Also it explains using PM and not PM+, mainly because PM+ had just come out, but PM+ can be used instead. Capture One is just being used as a file browser/editor.

Hope it helps understanding.

[myotis]

This might help explain the “dummy session” setup mentioned in previous post. This session does not use the catalog of Capture One

It was me that used the term dummy session earlier. I also call it an empty session. You are probably aware of this, but to expand my dummy folder description.

C1 has four ways of working with files.

A C1 managed catalogue, where the raw files are physically saved inside a container file, where previews, indexes, edits etc are also stored. This was the default for Apple Aperture, when it existed.

A C1 referenced catalogue (the default), where the raw files are left in the system folders where PM or C1 imported them to, and only the previews, indexes edits etc are stored inside a C1 catalogue file. The same approach as Lightroom uses.

A C1 session where the raw files associated with a Session are imported into a system folder designated as a "capture" Folder inside a top level C1 session folder.  There are other folders/files created by C1 inside this top level session folder which are used for storing previews, edit information program customisation etc. 

The concept behind a Session is that you can create a single session folder that contains subfolders for all the files (raw files and output files) along with all the previews, edits etc that associated with a single project. This makes the entire project self contained for moving between computers and archiving.

When you create a session, and import files into that session, you physically move the files into the session capture folder.  This is the standard way of using sessions.

However, as I assume it shows in the video, there is a fourth way, that is rarely mentioned. In a C1 session you can also browse the system folders where raw files are stored, from inside C1, and simply open the files inside a session without importing them into the Session Capture folder.

You still need to create a Session file, but as nothing is imported into the session folders, so the session folders remain empty, hence the dummy or empty session description.

Using a session in this way means that C1 creates a "CaptureOne" folder inside every folder where a raw file has been edited by C1. This folder stores the C1 created previews along with the edit information.

It's a useful way of using C1, but you do of course lose the "self contained" advantage of Sessions.

[Rob Hedge]

Re the Capture One/David Grover video discussed above.

To be clear, Grover does not suggest that people should use a Capture One Session rather than a Capture One Catalogue if they want to use Photo Mechanic to import, cull and apply metadata to their photographs. He is simply working on the premise that people who want to use these programmes together are probably doing a shoot that is often done as a Session. In fact, all of the examples that he gives in the video are typical Session cases. His principal example involves pro sports.

The video was also made the same week that Photo Mechanic Plus was announced. Grover doesn't say anything about Photo Mechanic Plus Catalogues, and therefore doesn't address the subject of this thread, which is dealing with overlap between a PM6+ Catalogue and a Capture One Catalogue. In any event, as far as I can tell Sessions don't avoid overlap and its storage implications. My own view of Sessions is that they're just a self-contained Catalogue with images package (even if it's possible to bring images from outside the folder structure into its orbit), with the problematic feature that you can't search across them. Great for a wedding or a defined product or fashion shoot, not so great for a body of work.

Just watched the video again. At 35:17 Grover is asked about Photo Mechanic Plus, which had just been announced, and he responds that he's never heard of it.

[schs]

What you see in the video mentioned above is  a way to use C1 file based, without the need to use the C1 catalog or the sessions to manage the images. In your question you ask if there is any benefit of having overlapping catalogs. In my opinion no, there is no benefit in doing this. I like the simplicity when using PM+ for managing images and C1 for editing.

[Rob Hedge]

What you see in the video mentioned above is  a way to use C1 file based, without the need to use the C1 catalog or the sessions to manage the images. In your question you ask if there is any benefit of having overlapping catalogs. In my opinion no, there is no benefit in doing this. I like the simplicity when using PM+ for managing images and C1 for editing.

I gather that you're talking about the section of the video that starts at about 26m. I don't think that the video shows what you think it does. The approach requires the creation if a Session followed by the creation of a system folder. At that point, it appears that what happens is that photos outside the Session folder structure are bought into its orbit. See my post two above and @myotis's post three above. It isn't clear to me how this avoids the duplication of images.

The video proceeds to show these images in the Capture One Library. Is Capture One just displaying PM's images or are they Capture One generated previews? If the former, how does Capture One process the original images? What does your computer tell you about the original files and the files in the system folder that was created in Capture One in relation to the PMPlus catalogue images?

I think it's important to understand that David Grover didn't know that PMPlus existed when he made the video that people refer to. He specifically says so at 35:17 of the video.

Almost two years after PMPlus was launched, I've yet to see anybody explain how it's possible to use Capture One and PMPlus's catalogue feature together without duplicating image files. If somebody knows how to do it, I'd love to know how it's done.

[myotis]

[The approach requires the creation if a Session followed by the creation of a system folder. At that point, it appears that what happens is that photos outside the Session folder structure are bought into its orbit.

But you don't need to do it that way.  And it depends on what you mean by image files. You need to duplicate previews but not RAWs.  But, if  I understand it correctly you can ask PM+ to carry on using the embedded jpegs inside the raw, and not create PM+ previews (I am assuming this is what the option to "not generate preview and proxy thumbnails" does. So you could maybe avoid all duplicates.

But ignoring the latter point on embedded jpegs, you still don't "need" to create a system folder the way David created one in the video after 26mins. You just need to point C1, from inside a session, to the same folders where the raws are stored for the PM+ catalogue.

Having said that,  I also use a similar approach to the one David showed to deliberately create duplicates of the RAWs as part of my back up strategy. 

So although I use a C1 dummy/empty session  as a browser, which doesn't duplicate any raw files, I also have project based sessions, where I use PM+ or LR to physically copy files from my main Raw file storage (catalogued by PM+ and LR), into the C1 generated "Capture" folders of project based sessions.   Which in turn could be catalogued by PM+ or LR (but I don't actually do that)

[Rob Hedge]

So you could maybe avoid all duplicates.

Maybe? Twenty months after the launch of PM+, we're at "maybe"? The question is, can you, or can't you, use Capture One and a PM+ catalogue without accepting that there will be duplication of images? If so, how? I mean a substantive method that shows up in number of files and megabytes.

[myotis]

So you could maybe avoid all duplicates.

Maybe? Twenty months after the launch of PM+, we're at "maybe"? The question is, can you, or can't you, use Capture One and a PM+ catalogue without accepting that there will be duplication of image files? If so, how? I mean a substantive method that shows up in number of files and megabytes.

I still don't know what you mean by "image" files. There is certainly no need to duplicate RAW files, which I have explained, and you could ask Camera Bits about what the "not generate previews or proxy means".  The "maybe" is just because  I don't exactly know what that PM+ option means, but Camera Bits will.

[schs]

What you see in the video mentioned above is  a way to use C1 file based, without the need to use the C1 catalog or the sessions to manage the images. In your question you ask if there is any benefit of having overlapping catalogs. In my opinion no, there is no benefit in doing this. I like the simplicity when using PM+ for managing images and C1 for editing.

I gather that you're talking about the section of the video that starts at about 26m. I don't think that the video shows what you think it does. The approach requires the creation if a Session followed by the creation of a system folder. At that point, it appears that what happens is that photos outside the Session folder structure are bought into its orbit. See my post two above and @myotis's post three above. It isn't clear to me how this avoids the duplication of images.

The video proceeds to show these images in the Capture One Library. Is Capture One just displaying PM's images or are they Capture One generated previews? If the former, how does Capture One process the original images? What does your computer tell you about the original files and the files in the system folder that was created in Capture One in relation to the PMPlus catalogue images?

I think it's important to understand that David Grover didn't know that PMPlus existed when he made the video that people refer to. He specifically says so at 35:17 of the video.

Almost two years after PMPlus was launched, I've yet to see anybody explain how it's possible to use Capture One and PMPlus's catalogue feature together without duplicating image files. If somebody knows how to do it, I'd love to know how it's done.

I will outline the steps of my workflow, just to clarify how I work with PM+ and C1:

- I use the PM+ ingest to copy images files from SD cards to my computer; I set all the metadata as I need it
- After this the images files (I use RAW+JPEG) together with the XMP files are in a folder structure "drive:<YYYY>:<YYYY-MM-DD>:<filename>" (example "Images:2022:2022-07-13:XT3456789.JPG")
- I open C1
- I use an empty session (another user called this dummy session); simply put C1 needs this, even when you are not working with that session (adding / selecting images...)
- From within C1 I go to the Library tool and use the system folder view (NOT the session folders) and navigate to the folder that was created in the ingest step
- I use star ratings to select the images I'd like to edit
- When finished editing, the output of C1 is saved in the same folder as the original image file
- In case you change color or star rating, make sure you sync this in C1 and then in PM+ use the update folder in order to read the data (I think this could be done automatically, not sure about the settings)

When you use C1 that way there will be a folder created called "CaptureOne". That's the folder where C1 stores the information about the edits, previews and the like.

You say "...At that point, it appears that what happens is that photos outside the Session folder structure are bought into its orbit." and I think this is where you mix 2 ways to work with session: one is work with session :-) and the other is work with files without touching the session. When I edit as explained above there is no image in one of the session folders visible. Everything happens in the folder structure mentioned above. Let me know at which step you see somehow a duplication of images, hopefully I can explain that a bit more in detail.


 

[ODThomas]

What @schs said.

[myotis]

- In case you change color or star rating, make sure you sync this in C1 and then in PM+ use the update folder in order to read the data (I think this could be done automatically, not sure about the settings)

Your workflow is exactly the same as mine when using a dummy/empty session.

And as an aside you set sync all in the C1 XMP preferences and you need to select the C1 option in the PM colour label preferences.

One issue, is that the C1 full sync "overwrites" whatever is in the XMP file,  so after the initial reading of any metafile data created in PM you need to update in C1 only, OR set C1 to read only for XMP data and make all XMP changes in PM.

[ODThomas]

Here’s a crazy idea … why not give what schs, others and the referenced video a try and determine if it works for you. If it does great, otherwise you need to sort out another solution that does work for you.

Arguing, sorry discussing the issue, without trying the suggestions will drag this thread on and on.

[ahoward]

So you could maybe avoid all duplicates.

Maybe? Twenty months after the launch of PM+, we're at "maybe"? The question is, can you, or can't you, use Capture One and a PM+ catalogue without accepting that there will be duplication of image files? If so, how? I mean a substantive method that shows up in number of files and megabytes.

With respect to the Photo Mechanic Plus catalog:

I still don't know what you mean by "image" files. There is certainly no need to duplicate RAW files, which I have explained, and you could ask Camera Bits about what the "not generate previews or proxy means".  The "maybe" is just because  I don't exactly know what that PM+ option means, but Camera Bits will.

If Proxy Generation is enabled in Catalog Management, Photo Mechanic will create a JPEG at the specified size for each image in the catalog as a proxy for when the image is offline. That way, if the drive that stores your source files is offline, you will see an image and not a blank square or placeholder if you are to perform a query on the catalog where that image is the result. If the drive that stores your images is *never* offline (or you don't care about seeing a blank square if it is), then you can opt out of having proxies generated and save a fair amount of disk space for a large catalog.

Adding an item to a catalog never creates a duplicate of your files. Depending on your choice for the setting described above, it may create a proxy, stored in the catalog's folder (or another location you can set manually). You can also automatically add Ingested files to your catalog, and the process of Ingesting *does* create a new copy of the file, but there are other ways to add items to a catalog (scan to catalog, right-click -> Add to catalog, etc.), but adding to a catalog in and of itself does not create a duplicate of any images. At most it creates the proxy.

If Photo Mechanic is showing you a proxy, the dot below the image on the contact sheet will be yellow instead of green.

Hope that clears things up as far as what proxies are. Please note that we do also use the term in the "View" menu for "Unknown files as Proxies". This setting describes what Photo Mechanic should do if it opens a contact sheet and finds non-image files. If this setting is checked, you'll see the Photo Mechanic icon and file extension of the files that are "unknown". Sorry if that is adding to any confusion over what proxies are.

[myotis]

If the drive that stores your images is *never* offline (or you don't care about seeing a blank square if it is), then you can opt out of having proxies generated and save a fair amount of disk space for a large catalog.

Thanks, from my previous post to the one you replied to, what you have described is what I had assumed, but wasn't sure.   And it answers Rob Hedges question on duplicates.

Graham