Author Topic: Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?  (Read 25967 times)

Offline Rob Hedge

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Re: Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?
« Reply #45 on: July 13, 2022, 05:14:30 PM »
you can opt out of having proxies generated and save a fair amount of disk space for a large catalog.

While @myotis says that he "wasn't sure" about the question, I read your company's support documentation, which addresses this specifically, when I downloaded Plus earlier this week. I adjusted the catalogue menu options and unchecked that box.

This is part of a larger exercise in which I'm revisiting how I handle organisation of photographs. The first step was to customise and streamline my IPTC Template (screen capture below). For my purposes, the template works better now for both analogue and digital photographs, and gets rid of a large number of IPTC fields that I don't need. I've also made several changes to the template's organisation, and in some cases to subject titles, to suit my own preferences.

I like the way that you've implemented the IPTC distinction between where a camera is and where its subject is. I'm also keen on the drop-down menus, which were the source of all of the filled fields in the example screen capture below. Because the IPTC defers to the camera manufacturers when it comes to camera, lens and exposure data, my revised template requires repurposing of a number of IPTC fields. I'm considering Phil Harvey's ExifTool as a way to address that.

As a result of yesterday's brief thread about the "Location ID" field, I've decided that Astoria is a more helpful "Location Identifier" for my purposes than a machine readable code :) In a city like New York, where I am, using that field is also a convenient way to drill down from the borough level to the neighbourhood level.

The next step is to choose between Capture One and Plus for search. This is both an efficiency issue and a resource issue. This afternoon, I set up the Capture One options and a Plus test catalogue, and I'll choose one of the two applications over the next week.

« Last Edit: July 14, 2022, 05:12:51 AM by Rob Hedge »
Processing: Mac Studio, Photo Mechanic Plus, Capture One

Image Formats: Leica DNG, Apple HEIC, TIFF, JPEG, MOV

Offline Rob Hedge

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Re: Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?
« Reply #46 on: July 16, 2022, 11:30:29 AM »
I've now tested both of the types of Capture One Sessions that David Grover shows in the live stream video discussed above, namely a "Standard" Session and a "Utility" Session.

Testing has reinforced my view that the video doesn't address the subject of this thread, and that the video may not be well understood. At the outset, I want to reiterate that the video was made the day after PM6+ was released, that Grover says in the video, in response to a question from a participant in the live stream, that he doesn't know what PM6+ is, and that his video has nothing to do with Photo Mechanic Catalogues.

The video shows use of Capture One Sessions rather than a Capture One Catalogue because Grover believed that photographers using both Capture One and the standard version of Photo Mechanic together are likely to be engaged in the kinds of photography where Sessions are commonly used. The first sentence in the video description says "Photomechanic is a popular choice for photographers working under pressure in the field, certainly with events, sporting events and photojournalism." The example photos that he uses in the video were made by a photographer who specialises in pro sports events.

Capture One Sessions, regardless of attributes, require one to create a Session parent directory. However, my understanding is that the subdirectories that Capture One generates when a Session is created - Capture, Selects, Output and Trash - represent nothing more than a suggested workflow. These subdirectories can be renamed to whatever one wants. Their very use is optional. For example, many photographers do not use the Selects subdirectory. If I recall correctly, Grover himself has said that he doesn't use it. Furthermore, photographs don't even have to be within the Session parent directory.

Unsurprisingly, Grover first presents Capture One's suggested Session workflow, in which both the Capture and Output subdirectories are used. This approach creates a self-contained package that makes a lot of sense to assignment photographers who need to share their work with others. Grover then presents a modified workflow for photographers who want to create a Session that is used as a revolving door.

In this workflow, one creates a new Session. Grover calls it "Utility Session".

With this Session active, one then creates a new directory for the photographs for an individual event, in his example "Super Bowl 2020". Note that this directory is created from within the Utility Session, although it can be made wherever on one's computer one wants. The idea is that one will create a new directory for each event photographed, whether it's a football game, a wedding or a vacation in Patagonia. Note that this new directory takes the place of the Session "Capture" subdirectory.

The final step takes place after one has used Photo Mechanic to apply metadata to the photographs destined for this new directory. From within Photo Mechanic, the photographs are copied to the new event directory. Grover offers two ways of doing this so that the PM metadata is retained.

Capture One is then used to process the photographs. The processed photographs can be exported to the "Utility Session" Output folder. However, Grover suggests that one stay with the event directory that has the original photographs in it. This is done by creating, within the event directory, a subdirectory for the exported files. No doubt some event photographers will find Grover's suggestion attractive, but it may be less attractive to photographers who need to share a full Session package.

I've now tested both of these types of Sessions with the same original photographs, and examined the resulting files in Mac Finder. Considered in the context of a single photo event, there is no substantive difference between the two types of Sessions. They result in exactly the same files and exactly the same amount of data.

However, Capture One takes the position, correctly in my view, that a Capture One Catalogue makes more sense than individual Sessions if one is creating a body of work rather than recording discrete events such as a wedding, a product shoot or a football game. Grover's video doesn't address users of Capture One Catalogues at all. That's because he thought that the main market for PM6 was event photographers. A reasonable assumption on his part.

There is a related issue, not addressed due to the video's immediate focus, of considerable significance. It is not possible to do a search among Sessions, regardless of whether we're talking about Standard Sessions or a revolving door Utility Session. Over time, this workflow results in a large and growing number of self-contained, inscrutable packages of data.

Remembering that Grover's video was made before PM6+ was even a consideration, how does one address that? Grover's answer would be to import one's Sessions into a Catalogue once the short-term desirability of a Session workflow has passed. An additional step if a Session wasn't needed in the first place.

I think that it's clear that PM6+ adds overhead to use of Capture One. How much is less clear. As @ahoward says three posts above, one can create a PM6+ Catalogue that doesn't create proxies. This may be attractive if off-line access to the Catalogue's images isn't needed. I tested both settings, and turning off proxies does reduce PM6+ overhead.

For me, it's important that Capture One, both in Catalogue and Session views, shows me the current processed state of photographs rather than the unprocessed originals. I still need to investigate what's involved in getting PM6+ to do this. Hence my July 4th post in this thread about a 2016 Camerabits video that talks about achieving this with Lightroom.

My next steps are to address that issue and its resource implications, and to test using a Capture One Catalogue and a Photo Mechanic Plus Catalogue together.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2022, 12:51:18 PM by Rob Hedge »
Processing: Mac Studio, Photo Mechanic Plus, Capture One

Image Formats: Leica DNG, Apple HEIC, TIFF, JPEG, MOV

Offline myotis

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Re: Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?
« Reply #47 on: July 16, 2022, 12:43:55 PM »

There is a related issue, not addressed due to the video's immediate focus, of considerable significance. It is not possible to do a search among Sessions, regardless of whether we're talking about Standard Sessions or a revolving door Utility Session. Over time, this workflow results in a large and growing number of self-contained, inscrutable packages of data.

How does one address that? Grover's answer would be to import one's Sessions into a Catalogue once the short-term desirability of a Session workflow has passed. An additional step if a Session wasn't needed in the first place.


This is addressed by using the dummy/empty session approach  suggested earlier, because your files never leave the folders/directory structure that PM+ has already catalogued. If you use the save with original option when generating TIFF master files or JPEGs from C1 then they are also saved to folders/directory structure already known to PM+ and you just need to update the PM+ catalogue.

You will not, however be able to see the "edits in progress" from C1, because PM would need to be able to access the C1 rendering engine for that to be possible.  Media Pro used to do this before C1 discontinued it, but even then C1 didn't keep the rendering engine in Media Pro up to date with rendering engine in C1, and would regularly break the capability in Media Pro.

As regards the standard or utility sessions, with the caveat above of not being able to see the C1 edits until saved as a TIFF or Jpeg, you can add the session folders (whatever you call them) into a PM+ catalogue, which would then allow them to be searched. 

I mentioned earlier that I run a LR and PM+ in tandem, and in the past I have run, PM+, LR, C1 and Neofinder databases in parallel.
 This works fine, with some caveats, but again none of the programs except C1 can view the C1 edits.

My "main" workflow is to ingest all files (with PM+) into a date based folder hierarchy and date based file naming system which is catalogued by PM+.

I then have an empty/dummy C1 session file for each year saved in as a top level file in the file structure for each year. i.e, beside my raw files.

Output files from C1 are automatically saved alongside their raws, and get added into my existing PM+ catalogue. This avoids any duplicate files, and it's relatively easy to open the appropriate sessions from inside PM+.

Again, as I said before I also use standard project based sessions, but for those, I use the duplicate files as part of my backup strategy.

Offline Rob Hedge

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Re: Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?
« Reply #48 on: July 16, 2022, 03:31:40 PM »
This is addressed by using the dummy/empty session approach  suggested earlier, because your files never leave the folders/directory structure that PM+ has already catalogued.

Isn't Grover's Utility Session the same thing as what some of you call a dummy/empty Session? If so, I just think that Utility Session is a better term, and that words like "dummy" and "empty" don't reflect how Capture One Sessions work. There's nothing dummy or empty about a Utility Session. For the Utility Session method, Grover just changes out the Session Capture subdirectory for a directory elsewhere on his computer. It isn't a substantive change, just a directory change. As Grover says at the very end of the video, one of the attributes/strengths of a Capture One Session is that it can track directories wherever they are on your computer. Anyway, if people want to call it a Dummy Session, that's their business; no point in getting into a terminological debate.

Thanks for your comments on Capture One processed photos and Photo Mechanic Catalogues. I'm aware of what the problem is and of the 2016 Camerabits workaround for Lightroom. Don't want to say anything more about it until I do some tests and understand the issue better.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2022, 07:43:47 PM by Rob Hedge »
Processing: Mac Studio, Photo Mechanic Plus, Capture One

Image Formats: Leica DNG, Apple HEIC, TIFF, JPEG, MOV

Offline schs

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Re: Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?
« Reply #49 on: July 16, 2022, 09:59:22 PM »
This is addressed by using the dummy/empty session approach  suggested earlier, because your files never leave the folders/directory structure that PM+ has already catalogued.

Isn't Grover's Utility Session the same thing as what some of you call a dummy/empty Session?
Yes.

If so, I just think that Utility Session is a better term, and that words like "dummy" and "empty" don't reflect how Capture One Sessions work. There's nothing dummy or empty about a Utility Session. For the Utility Session method, Grover just changes out the Session Capture subdirectory for a directory elsewhere on his computer. It isn't a substantive change, just a directory change.
It is empty. And that is a small but substantial change when using a C1 session as a utility/dummy/emtpy session.

As Grover says at the very end of the video, one of the attributes/strengths of a Capture One Session is that it can track directories wherever they are on your computer. Anyway, if people want to call it a Dummy Session, that's their business; no point in getting into a terminological debate.
That's a feature of sessions and useful when you are working with the sessions folders.

There are webinars for C1 available that explain sessions and catalogs in detail (iirc about an hour long each). I think these will help you sort these things out when learning about sessions and catalogs.

Thanks for your comments on Capture One processed photos and Photo Mechanic Catalogues. I'm aware of what the problem is ...
That one made me smile a little bit.

I remember when I switched to C1 and PM / PM+. I had to rethink and change some of my good old habits regarding managing and editing images and that took quite some time and effort. This forum and the C1 support pages and webinars were of great help in that process.


Offline Rob Hedge

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Re: Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?
« Reply #50 on: July 16, 2022, 10:42:07 PM »
There are webinars for C1 available that explain sessions and catalogs in detail (iirc about an hour long each). I think these will help you sort these things out when learning about sessions and catalogs.

Excuse me?
Processing: Mac Studio, Photo Mechanic Plus, Capture One

Image Formats: Leica DNG, Apple HEIC, TIFF, JPEG, MOV

Offline myotis

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Re: Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?
« Reply #51 on: July 16, 2022, 10:55:35 PM »
Isn't Grover's Utility Session the same thing as what some of you call a dummy/empty Session?

Re-reading what you said (I haven't. rewatched the video) it is using the same capability, but the principle behind it is different as the utility approach still describes "creating" a dedicated session folder that "contains" the raws being used for that session.

With the standard session raw files are inside a Capture folder created by C1, with the Utility session you tell tell C1 to use a different folder as it's "Capture" folder 

The dummy/empty session approach simply uses C1 as a browser that works with raw files in their existing locations, allowing you to  reference raw files from anywhere on your computer from inside the dummy/empty session. 

Within the C1 session you can browse directly to the existing location of any raw files to work on it in C1. If you are likely to want to access the same files frequently you can add them as session favourites. If you only want to access a single folder of raws from that session (as in the Utility approach) you can tell C1 to treat that single folder as the Capture folder.

As the dummy/empty session approach allows you to work with multiple existing folders all drawn together in a single session it means the same raw file to be referenced in multiple sessions and the storage structure, hierarchy, location etc of your raw files never ever change. They continue to be correctly referenced by the PM+ catalogue.

I "discovered" being able to use C1 as a browser like this by accident and  called it a "dummy" session because everything else I had seen required you to have a dedicated folder for the session raw files.  I thought I was "fooling" C1 into working with folders outside the session folders it was meant to work with.

My dummy session allowed me to just browse to the existing locations of the raw files.  I have frequently described on forums setting this dummy session where I suggest naming the session as "viewer" or "browser" and have come across several people who only ever use this single "browser" session for all their work. Never creating project sessions, and never creating a catalogue.

You can create multiple dummy/empty sessions by project, but still leave the associated raw files  in their existing (already catalogued) locations.

Since then I have seen others describe it as an empty session, which is a better name as it better describes the capability of creating a session without the need to create a dedicated storage place for the raws.

This dummy/empty session approach makes most sense, if you ingest raw files into a date based hierarchical folder system and, for specific projects. you need to grab raws from multiple locations.

If you ingest raw files into a project based folder system, then the utility approach makes more sense.



Offline Soizic

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Re: Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?
« Reply #52 on: July 17, 2022, 01:44:09 AM »
Hello
I tried your method.
I first created a catalog in PM where I placed a folder with three subfolders of raw files.
 I choose an image, rename it, tag it and ask for its edition in C1 which opens the dummy section.
Then I export a JPG next to the original.

It is back in PM that the problem arises.
I can't find the JPG photo, I have to synchronize the catalog, and ask for a Filter New. I find that it takes a little time and moreover the original photo (marked with a yellow dot) is still in the catalog.

Usually adding a photo to PM makes it visible immediately.
What did I do wrong?


(Mac M1)
Soizic (France)
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Offline myotis

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Re: Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?
« Reply #53 on: July 17, 2022, 02:56:43 AM »
Hello
I tried your method.
I first created a catalog in PM where I placed a folder with three subfolders of raw files.
 I choose an image, rename it, tag it and ask for its edition in C1 which opens the dummy section.
Then I export a JPG next to the original.

It is back in PM that the problem arises.
I can't find the JPG photo, I have to synchronize the catalog, and ask for a Filter New. I find that it takes a little time and moreover the original photo (marked with a yellow dot) is still in the catalog.

Usually adding a photo to PM makes it visible immediately.
What did I do wrong?


(Mac M1)

There are few things to unpack here.

Why did you rename the raw file, and did you rename it using PM+.

The yellow dot by the file in PM+ is showing that although you have a file, with that name, in your catalogue, PM+ cannot find the matching raw file.  This shouldn't happen if you rename the file using PM+.

I'm not entirely sure how you have opened the raw file in C1, but the way I do it is to have the empty/dummy session open and then in the library tab in C1 navigate to the system folders to locate the file I want to edit in C1. With a Mac (but I don't think this works  with Window) you can drag the thumbnail from PM into the already open C1 session, but I generally prefer opening the files from inside C1.

The exported jpeg won't automatically appear in the catalog, but it should appear in the PM browser. You may need to close and re-open the folder in the PM browser before PM shows it.

You can then manually ask it to be added to the catalogue, or you can manually update the catalogue. Some DAMs have auto update options, where they watch folders for changes, or run an timed update, but PM+ doesn't offer this (at least I don't think they do).

If you want to exchange metadata between C1 and PM+, you need to set up C1 in the preferences to read and write XMP files, and in PM+ preferences you need to ask PM+ to use C1 colour labels.  Sorry, I can't remember where these are in preferences.

Worth noting, that the last time I checked, the C1 XMP sync option  just overwrites the xmp data with any changes made in C1, so it's not a proper sync.

Hopefully, this will help you sort out why things aren' working as expected.


Offline Rob Hedge

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Re: Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?
« Reply #54 on: July 17, 2022, 07:21:30 AM »
I "discovered" being able to use C1 as a browser like this by accident and  called it a "dummy" session because everything else I had seen required you to have a dedicated folder for the session raw files.  I thought I was "fooling" C1 into working with folders outside the session folders it was meant to work with.

This is getting away from the subject of the thread. Suffice to say that both Standard and Utility Sessions can do what you're talking about and it's no secret. I've already specifically referred to bringing files into the "orbit" of a Session in earlier posts, and David Grover has talked about this in other videos. In the instant video, he provides two workflows that might make sense for event-focused photographers. As I said earlier, these photographers were seen as the principal audience for the video. I think that it's important to keep that in mind. Grover was not being exhaustive.

Both of Grover's setups, and yours, are based on the fundamentals of how Sessions work. I think that sight of these fundamentals is lost when people start talking about "dummy" and "empty" Sessions, but as I've already said there's nothing to be gained from a terminological debate. There are other forums, including Capture One's own, for that.

At this point, I'm going to focus on the two Capture One/Photo Mechanic Catalogue issues that I flagged a few posts up: "My next steps are to address that issue [PM Catalogues in relation to images that have been processed in Capture One] and its resource implications, and to test using a Capture One Catalogue and a Photo Mechanic Plus Catalogue together."


« Last Edit: July 17, 2022, 07:51:33 AM by Rob Hedge »
Processing: Mac Studio, Photo Mechanic Plus, Capture One

Image Formats: Leica DNG, Apple HEIC, TIFF, JPEG, MOV

Offline myotis

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Re: Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?
« Reply #55 on: July 17, 2022, 09:04:30 AM »
This is getting away from the subject of the thread. Suffice to say that both Standard and Utility Sessions can do what you're talking about and it's no secret.

Fair enough, I'm not suggesting it was a secret, but using C1 as a browser (e.g using an empty/dummy session) has only been occasionally mentioned in the C1 literature/training videos, and long after I discovered it.

I've already explained why I used the term dummy session and understand why others have ended up using empty session, because that is what it is.

I only felt the need to come up with a name for it when I started to explain to others how to use a C1 sessions as a browser, and avoid any need for dedicated session locations for the raw files.

As I have already explained, it is just another way of using the flexibility of the session tools, but it is distinctly different from using a standard session or a utility session and isn't aimed at event or project based photographers, but aimed at turning a C1 session into a general purpose file browser, which you could argue is the exact opposite of what an event or project based photographer needs.

And I feel it is a better match with PM+ catalogue than the standard session or Utility session approach.

But you next approach of running a PM+ catalogue alongside a C1 catalogue will work well enough, but if you aren't already aware, you should see what I said to Soizic, about syncing metadata between the two.


Offline Rob Hedge

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Re: Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?
« Reply #56 on: July 17, 2022, 09:35:17 AM »


Fair enough, I'm not suggesting it was a secret, but using C1 as a browser (e.g using an empty/dummy session) has only been occasionally mentioned in the C1 literature/training videos, and long after I discovered it.

David Grover says specifically that the Session function is being used as a browser in the very Capture One/Photo Mechanic video that's under discussion. Grover has worked for Phase One for a long time. He knows how Capture One works. I think that it's helpful to listen carefully to what he says, and to keep in mind the context of the discussion, in this case workflows for event photographers. In that live stream video, he was offering practical workflows for a specific type of photographer, not engaging in a theoretical discourse.

There's a small group of Capture One users who have a bee in their bonnet about Capture One Catalogues and prosthelytise about using Sessions for everything. This is starting to sound like one of those discussions. I don't think that this is the place to have that debate, and in any event I'm not interested in what those users are trying to sell.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2022, 10:13:13 AM by Rob Hedge »
Processing: Mac Studio, Photo Mechanic Plus, Capture One

Image Formats: Leica DNG, Apple HEIC, TIFF, JPEG, MOV

Offline Soizic

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Re: Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?
« Reply #57 on: July 17, 2022, 11:32:14 AM »
Thank you for yours answers
Everything works fine, I use the new collection to include the jpg.
Too bad that the collection of missing files does not appear but it is easy to find them through the edit menu.
Soizic (France)
MacBook Pro M1,Ventura, PM+ à jour, deepl translator

Offline myotis

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Re: Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?
« Reply #58 on: July 17, 2022, 12:07:52 PM »

David Grover says specifically that the Session function is being used as a browser in the very Capture One/Photo Mechanic video that's under discussion.

I confess I was insufficiently interested to watch the video again (I watched it when it was released), and simply went on your descriptions, which didn't describe using a C1 session as a browser.

I've  been using C1 with PM, almost daily, for well over ten years, with both C1 catalogues and C1 sessions in various forms. I've been watching Phase one/C1 training videos since before David started making them, I also regularly watch C1 training videos from other sources and have taken several paid for C1 courses.

I don't recognise the idea that the thread has been theoretical as it seemed to me that it was just people sharing their practical experiences with you. Nor have I noticed any sessions for everything stance (but its now a long thread, and I have reread older posts).

However, the last few posts have convinced me that it's time I give up trying to help. I hope you get things working the way you want them to.

Offline myotis

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Re: Consequences of having overlapping Capture One & PM+ catalogues?
« Reply #59 on: July 17, 2022, 12:09:38 PM »
Thank you for yours answers
Everything works fine, I use the new collection to include the jpg.
Too bad that the collection of missing files does not appear but it is easy to find them through the edit menu.

I'm glad you got it working :-)