PM6 - Pics (soft-)rotation, NEF workflow, contact sheet tumbs tool-buttons size

[Juerg]

Using PM since 15 years from PM 3 > PM4 > PM 5 on a Win 10 PC with Nikon cameras (NEF) I downloaded the PM 6+ Trail Version and played around a little, finding some issues I do not know whether they are specific to me and my current/previous workflow.

Up until last summer I used NX2 to edit my NEF files (all the way up to D610/D810 dSLR, the last two supported by NX2). After edits to the NEF files I saved a TIF copy and made the final edits in Photoshop CS5.

Last Summer I switched to the new Nikon Z cameras, thus NX2 does not work for these any longer. Nikon NX-D and NX-Studio I find terrible to use and switched to Photoshop Elements 2022/ACR to edit Z-system NEF files before saving as TIFF and make final edits in CS5 again. ACR evolved a lot since I tried it last in 2011 and its much easier to create outputs matching NX2, even with the older dSLR files. Therefore, I want to get away from NX2 all together and use only ACR for future NEF edits, even for older dSLR files that I eventually touch again for re-editing and previously were edited with NX2.

I always had PM set-up to write XMP/IPTC information to the NEF files and liked the fact that I did not need sidecar files. With the Z camera systems I will not get around sidecar files as also Nikon NX-D and NX-Studio now save everything in sidecar files, the same as ACR does. Now I have a few questions:

1. XMP/IPTC Settings
I assume that setting PM 6 up using the "Adobe" preset for XMP/IPTC handling is the correct way to go. But what happens to the OLD NEF files for which I used the "Capture NX" preset for XMP/IPTC? Do these get out of sync now that sidecar files are created but they had the information previously written into the files. Or is there a way that all the XMP/IPTC data written into the old files are deleted and only sidecar files are used?

2. File rotation PM5 vs PM6
I noticed that some NEF files in portrait mode show correct in PM5, but show rotated in PM6. When opened in ACR the show correct. The funny thing is that I cannot rotate them using PM6. I have to use PM5 to rotate them "wrong" so they show correct in PM6, but now open up wrong in ACR.
I played also around with some TIFF and JPG files. Some of them I can rotate in PM6, others I cannot rotate in PM6. In PM5 they all can be rotated without problem. So, what is the difference between PM5 and PM6 in regard to file rotation?

3. Tool-button for contact-sheet tumbs
In PM5, the 4 tool-buttons in the corner of the tumb-preview scaled based on the tumb size I selected, ensuring that they newer got so big as to cover part of the tumb or being distracting. In PM6 they seem to have a fixed size and to not scale based on the tumb size, therefore starting to covering part of the tumb and/or become very distracting. Is it by design that they do not scale any longer?

Regards,
Juerg

[Kirk Baker]

Juerg,

Now I have a few questions:

1. XMP/IPTC Settings
I assume that setting PM 6 up using the "Adobe" preset for XMP/IPTC handling is the correct way to go. But what happens to the OLD NEF files for which I used the "Capture NX" preset for XMP/IPTC? Do these get out of sync now that sidecar files are created but they had the information previously written into the files. Or is there a way that all the XMP/IPTC data written into the old files are deleted and only sidecar files are used?

You can use the "Revert TIFF-based RAW to Original" command on the Tools menu to move the embedded metadata out to XMP sidecar files.  Select the old images and use the tool and it will process the selected images.  Be sure to set the checkbox "Backup XMP to XMP sidecar files or re-add to DNGs" before invoking the tool.

2. File rotation PM5 vs PM6
I noticed that some NEF files in portrait mode show correct in PM5, but show rotated in PM6. When opened in ACR the show correct. The funny thing is that I cannot rotate them using PM6. I have to use PM5 to rotate them "wrong" so they show correct in PM6, but now open up wrong in ACR.
I played also around with some TIFF and JPG files. Some of them I can rotate in PM6, others I cannot rotate in PM6. In PM5 they all can be rotated without problem. So, what is the difference between PM5 and PM6 in regard to file rotation?

Hard to say.  Please post a sample image that exhibits this problem.  If it has an XMP sidecar file, post it as well.  Use the 'Attachments and other options' link when you're composing your reply to this message and there you'll be able to upload your files.

3. Tool-button for contact-sheet thumbs
In PM5, the 4 tool-buttons in the corner of the thumb-preview scaled based on the tumb size I selected, ensuring that they newer got so big as to cover part of the thumb or being distracting. In PM6 they seem to have a fixed size and to not scale based on the thumb size, therefore starting to covering part of the thumb and/or become very distracting. Is it by design that they do not scale any longer?

I don't believe that they ever scaled but I haven't used PM5 in a long time.  Can you post a screenshot of the situation in PM5 where the buttons decrease in size?

Thanks,

-Kirk

[Juerg]

Hi Kirk,

1. XMP/IPTC Settings

You can use the "Revert TIFF-based RAW to Original" command on the Tools menu to move the embedded metadata out to XMP sidecar files.  Select the old images and use the tool and it will process the selected images.  Be sure to set the checkbox "Backup XMP to XMP sidecar files or re-add to DNGs" before invoking the tool.

Does the "Revert ..." command require that in the XMP/IPTC preferences the option "Allow RAW files to be modified" is activ for it to work, or will it strip the XMP/IPTC from RAW no matter what?
Does this command also strip information written to the RAW (NEF) by Capture NX/NX2?

2. File rotation PM5 vs PM6

Hard to say.  Please post a sample image that exhibits this problem.  If it has an XMP sidecar file, post it as well.  Use the 'Attachments and other options' link when you're composing your reply to this message and there you'll be able to upload your files.

I attached a sample NEF, TIFF and JPG file of the same picture (091002_PAS7444_JH_Greece_Santorini_Thira...). They were crated and worked on 2010/2011 and not touched anymore since then.
All these rotate without problem in PM5. In PM+, only the JPG can be rotatet. The NEF and TIF cannot be rotated.

3. Tool-button for contact-sheet thumbs

I don't believe that they ever scaled but I haven't used PM5 in a long time.  Can you post a screenshot of the situation in PM5 where the buttons decrease in size?

Sorry, my mistake. You are right, the buttons did also not scale in PM5, but they were quite a bit smaller to beginn with. Therefore they never really got in the way. In PM6 they grew in size and, to be honest, look like extra large buttons for toddlers 
I also attached a sample showing PM5 vs PM6. I actually would prefere if the buttons get smaller again to be not so distracting.

[Juerg]

UPSSSS ...

Sorry, didn't realize it would show the files in full size inside the post 


By the way, it just seems that PM6 has only problems with pictures that were taken with the camera in portrait orientation. The funny thing is that some pictures taken at the same day with the same camera can be rotated and others cannot. PM6 seems to handle (read/write) the rotation markers set by the camera (or software in post-process) totally different than PM5 did.

[Juerg]

Just found this post from 2020 that reported the the same rotation problems i experience now...

http://forums.camerabits.com/index.php?topic=13711.0

But it seems nobody ever looked into it and never got fixed ☹️

[Kirk Baker]

Juerg,

2. File rotation PM5 vs PM6

Hard to say.  Please post a sample image that exhibits this problem.  If it has an XMP sidecar file, post it as well.  Use the 'Attachments and other options' link when you're composing your reply to this message and there you'll be able to upload your files.

I attached a sample NEF, TIFF and JPG file of the same picture (091002_PAS7444_JH_Greece_Santorini_Thira...). They were crated and worked on 2010/2011 and not touched anymore since then.
All these rotate without problem in PM5. In PM+, only the JPG can be rotatet. The NEF and TIF cannot be rotated.

I'm able to rotate both the JPEG and the TIFF in PM6/Photo Mechanic Plus.  The NEF is an interesting file:
1) It has three EXIF orientation tags.
2) It has two blocks of XMP embedded.
3) It has IPTC embedded.
4) It has a comment at the end of the file which is just plain text tacked on.
5) The embedded JPEG preview is pre-rotated.

It is this last part which makes it impossible for the rotation in PM6 look like it has taken effect.  The embedded JPEG preview should not be rotated.

That said, I'll have to refer this image to Dennis for further research.

-Kirk

[Juerg]

Hi Kirk,

I'm able to rotate both the JPEG and the TIFF in PM6/Photo Mechanic Plus.

That is strange, because I cannot rotate the TIFF file in PM+ on my Win10 PC. Do you use a MAC? Could it be that there is a difference how the WIN and MAC version of PM+ handles the file?

As a test, I opened the TIFF in Photoshop and saved it back again without any other actions done. After that I could rotate it in PM+.

The NEF is an interesting file:
1) It has three EXIF orientation tags.
2) It has two blocks of XMP embedded.
3) It has IPTC embedded.
4) It has a comment at the end of the file which is just plain text tacked on.
5) The embedded JPEG preview is pre-rotated.

It is this last part which makes it impossible for the rotation in PM6 look like it has taken effect.  The embedded JPEG preview should not be rotated.

That said, I'll have to refer this image to Dennis for further research.

-Kirk

OK, that sounds somehow strange for me. Since using PM my Workflow was always the same:

• Ingest NEF files using PM
• Select, rate, caption and keyword the NEF in PM (writing XMP/IPTC into NEF)
• Open in NX2 for initial editing and safe a TIFF file for further editing.
  The NEF is not touched anymore after this.
• Open the TIFF file in Photoshop for final editing,  sometimes enlarging it, before saving it (including adjustment layers) as a final TIFF version and creating a JPEG for distribution to agencies.

I therefore do not understand why the NEF files are so screwed up?
And I don`t understand the strange TIFF behavior on my version of PM+?
I hope Dennis is finding out what happened and how to fix the files.

For further investigation I send you attached some more files to look at:

• 2 DNG files I created using Adobe RAW Converter from the previously sent NEF file (one with and one without the NEF embeded). Could you please check out whether the convertet DNG files are "normal" or have the same screwed up Metadata embedded?
  the same issues as the NEF?
• File "111007_LND6095_JH_ITA_LakeGarda" (NEF and TIFF) that I just edited yesterday using the above Workflow.
  The NEF file again I cannot rotate in PM+, but it shows rotated in the Windows File Browser, but only in either 0° or 180° portrait orientation (the same actually is true for the original sent NEF).
  Strangely, the TIFF I can now rotate in PM+. So what is the difference of this TIFF to the original sent TIFF?

The important thing for me is to get the TIFF files back to a stage that they work again normal in PM+ and Photoshop.
As for the NEF files, unless Dennis does not find a easy way to "fix" them, that converting them into DNG`s will at least give me a workable and clean RAW original again.

For future NEF conversions, I will not use Nikon Capture NX/NX2 anymore and relay on ACR, unless Nikon NX Studio would work as it now does not write to the NEF but uses sidecar files as well. But that I have to try out first.
Furthermore, I now set-up PM+ to not modify any RAW files anymore by using the Adobe-Preset for XMP/IPTC handling. I hope that as well keeps the files clean.

Sorry if I bother you with my problems but your support is very much appreciated as always.

Regards,
Juerg

[dennis]

Hi Juerg,

Good news.  I think I have a solution.

Essentially NEF files saved by Capture NX2 are very different than NEF files written by the cameras.

The biggest difference is that the JPEG preview (that is used by PM) is both rotated and cropped.  So if you open a vertical photo (taken in the camera) and save a NEF from CNX2, CNX2 sets the Exif orientation to NONE, but it also records in private data what the rotation WAS before the save (typically what came from the camera).  This is unlike all other TIFF-based RAW formats where the JPEG preview is written unrotated and PM therefore rotates this during display according to the Exif orientation tag.

So PM was ignoring the Exif orientation and using only the private rotation saved by CNX2.  This meant that if you rotated a CNX2-saved NEF in PM, although we would update the Exif orientation tag values, the image would not rotate because these values were overridden during display by the private CNX2 rotation.

It turns out that the correct way to do this is to ADD the Exif orientation AND the CNX2 rotation together and use that as the final display rotation.  This allows you to now rotate the NEF in PM after saving from CNX2 while maintaining consistent behavior between PM, CNX2, and ACR.

The fix will be in an upcoming release and we can probably get you a test build for you to verify.  Please check with Kirk about that.

BTW - in PM5, it "appears" that PM rotates the image (display-wise) but if you quit PM then re-open you will notice that the rotation is still "stuck" in a way that uses only CNX2's rotation.  This behavior is due to image/thumbnail caching done by PM5 and not reflecting the actual file state.  In PM5 if you rotate a CNX2 NEF, then change thumbnail size, you should notice the rotation snap back.

Best,

--dennis

[Juerg]

Hi Dennis,

Good news.  I think I have a solution.

Essentially NEF files saved by Capture NX2 are very different than NEF files written by the cameras.

The biggest difference is that the JPEG preview (that is used by PM) is both rotated and cropped.  So if you open a vertical photo (taken in the camera) and save a NEF from CNX2, CNX2 sets the Exif orientation to NONE, but it also records in private data what the rotation WAS before the save (typically what came from the camera).  This is unlike all other TIFF-based RAW formats where the JPEG preview is written unrotated and PM therefore rotates this during display according to the Exif orientation tag.

So PM was ignoring the Exif orientation and using only the private rotation saved by CNX2.  This meant that if you rotated a CNX2-saved NEF in PM, although we would update the Exif orientation tag values, the image would not rotate because these values were overridden during display by the private CNX2 rotation.

It turns out that the correct way to do this is to ADD the Exif orientation AND the CNX2 rotation together and use that as the final display rotation.

I in a way understand what you say and puzzled that I am the only one that seems to have this problem with Nikon NEF files touched by CNX2.

This allows you to now rotate the NEF in PM after saving from CNX2 while maintaining consistent behavior between PM, CNX2, and ACR.

Do I understand it correct that I can keep using CNX2 for NEF files created by supported cameras, for both already edited NEF files and files to be edited for the the first time?
Or should I use for CNX2 supported NEF files to be edited the first time ACR, as I have to do with files of the new Z-Line cameras (not supported by CNX2) anyhow?

And this also brings up the question how to set the IPTC/XMP preferences in Photomechanic Plus:
Do I use the provided Snapshot for "ADOBE Products" or the Snapshot for "Nikon Capture NX/NX2" or even a MIX of both?

The fix will be in an upcoming release and we can probably get you a test build for you to verify.  Please check with Kirk about that.

Kirk already provided me with a test build to try out. I can do this over the weekend, but would appreciate your recommendation to above questions prior to me testing it.

BTW - in PM5, it "appears" that PM rotates the image (display-wise) but if you quit PM then re-open you will notice that the rotation is still "stuck" in a way that uses only CNX2's rotation.  This behavior is due to image/thumbnail caching done by PM5 and not reflecting the actual file state.  In PM5 if you rotate a CNX2 NEF, then change thumbnail size, you should notice the rotation snap back.

Unfortunately I have uninstalled PM5 already, but I I remember correctly, files rotated in PM5 showed the rotation in the thumb's, preview as well as when opened in NCX2 and stayed also that way unless I changed it again in PM5 or CNX2. I believe otherwise I would have brought up this a long time ago. But as said, that's how I remember and I can't be 100% sure.

Thanks and regards,
Juerg

[dennis]

I in a way understand what you say and puzzled that I am the only one that seems to have this problem with Nikon NEF files touched by CNX2.

Perhaps most people decide on the orientation they want for their photo while they are editing in CNX2 and don't try to further rotate the photo after this editing has been done.  BTW those NEF file aren't just "touched" by CNX2.  It writes an entirely new NEF with slightly different structure.

Do I understand it correct that I can keep using CNX2 for NEF files created by supported cameras, for both already edited NEF files and files to be edited for the the first time?
Or should I use for CNX2 supported NEF files to be edited the first time ACR, as I have to do with files of the new Z-Line cameras (not supported by CNX2) anyhow?

And this also brings up the question how to set the IPTC/XMP preferences in Photomechanic Plus:
Do I use the provided Snapshot for "ADOBE Products" or the Snapshot for "Nikon Capture NX/NX2" or even a MIX of both?

This gets a bit complicated...

The obvious problem with mixing CNX2 and Adobe (ACR or LR) are that they handle XMP differently.  CNX2 expects the XMP to be embedded and ignores any XMP sidecar.  ACR/LR (and other Adobe products) will not embed or modify embedded XMP and always update the XMP sidecar.  However, if you have both embedded XMP and an XMP sidecar, then ACR uses the XMP from the file (e.g. NEF or XMP sidecar) with the most recent date.  Most cameras these days at least write some tiny amount of XMP in order to store the rating.

If you only use ACR/LR then the RAW NEF file remains untouched (and modification time remains as is) - all XMP is put into the sidecar.  You can set PM to do the same by unchecking the "Allow RAW files to be modified" box.  This is how we recommend the settings when working with ACR/LR only, and in general it is recommended that you leave the RAW files unmodified and only use XMP sidecars (it is the safest thing to do).

Unfortunately if you open that NEF in CNX2, it will not see that XMP in the sidecar and it will ignore it.  So then if you save the NEF out from CNX2 (with same name), guess what happens if you go back to ACR/LR (or even PM)?  I believe ACR/LR will use the stale XMP that was originally embedded in the NEF because it now has a more recent date (this is how PM works).  So you will essentially lose the XMP that is in the sidecar and any further edits in PM will overwrite a new XMP sidecar.  Same problem if you write a new NEF (Save As) from CNX2 - the embedded XMP won't have any of the XMP that was in the sidecar.

If you edit in CNX2 first then any XMP you might add will be embedded.  If you then do additional editing in ACR/LR (for some reason), it will read the embedded XMP just fine.  But if you make adjustments in ACR, then all embedded XMP will be written to a new XMP sidecar along with ACR's adjustments.

Since you are working with CNX2, you need to have PM embed XMP into the NEF so CNX2 can read it and preserve it when a new NEF is saved from CNX2.  So you need to make sure you check the box to "Allow RAW files to be modified" and also check the box to "Add embedded metadata" (I write both XMP and IPTC but XMP only should be fine).

For the "Always create and/or update XMP sidecar file" box, if this is not checked then PM won't create an XMP sidecar if it doesn't already exist.  But if an XMP sidecar does exist PM will always update it to keep it in sync with embedded the XMP.  So if you uncheck this box and only use PM & CNX2, you should never see an XMP sidecar.

But once that NEF file is "touched" by ACR/LR you will now have an XMP sidecar that CNX2 will ignore.  Therefore, any ACR adjustments will only get added to the XMP sidecar (once the NEF is opened in Photoshop you can't add IPTC type metadata to the NEF file).

If you use Lightroom this gets more complicated because it can add IPTC type metadata to RAW files, but again it doesn't modify the actual RAW file (e.g. NEF), it only updates the XMP sidecar.  Therefore if you add a bunch of metadata (e.g. keywords) in LR and you want this metadata to flow into CNX2, then you need to touch the file in PM (e.g. tag/untag) or use the "Update IPTC/XMP" tool (ignore the option about JPEG/RAW).  PM will read the XMP sidecar which has the most recent metadata, and it will update the embedded XMP to match the sidecar.  Then this will flow into CNX2.

HTH!

--dennis

[Juerg]

Hello Dennis,

Sorry for taking so long to get back to you.

Thanks a lot for your detailed response and explanations. It is really a pity that everyone does things so different and creates a big mess for customers and users (and cross-functional-software developers such as yourself). Anyhow, from now on forward I will keep things simple and use the Adobe Only Workflow using ACR to develop my RAW files (not sure I will keep using NEF or switch to DNG, which has some advantages), Photoshop for final edits and PM for adding Metadata and for browsing/cataloging. No more Nikon software, no Lightroom, no Bridge or any other software.

Anyhow, I have tried the test-build provided by Kirk. Unfortunately, the results are mixed and the behavior of NEF files differentiate and fall into one of the following 3 categories (the XMP/IPTC Preferences set to modify or to not modify TIFF-Based RAW files didn't make any difference):

Cat. A: these NEF files still cannot be rotated in PM (even Windows explorer preview shows rotation)
Cat. B: these NEF files can now be rotated, but only in 180° steps, not in 90° steps. And, depending on the file,  either only clockwise (CW) or counter-clockwise (CCW)
Cat. C: NEF files in that category rotate now without problems in 90° steps, CW or CCW.

The reason why NEF files fall into a certain category I didn't find out, as some taken with the same camera, at the same day, and processed together at the same time and the same way may behave completely different.

I even found some NEF files (Rome, Italy) falling into Cat. B even they were never touched by a Nikon Software (only PM ingest with basic keywording and rating/labeling done in PM).

As mentioned before, I cannot rotate some TIFF files, too. The TIFF's were generated out of the NEF's (with "Save-As" command in CNX2) and further edited and finally saved in PS5. Again, as with the NEF before, I could not find why some can and other cannot be rotated. The only difference the NEF files above is that the TIFF fall either into Cat. A or C, none in Cat. B.

Just by chance I prepared an old Laptop for sale and found PM5 installed on it. So prior to wiping the laptop and setting it up new I made tests with some of the files out of Cat A, B and C (NEF and TIFF), and non of these files had any issues to be rotated in PM5. And they also kept the rotation by and did not "default back" as you suggested. So I remembered correctly that I never had these rotation issues in PM5.

I don't know if above information is of any help and not too confusing. I therefore put together another set of files (NEF's and TIFF's) out of each category to give you more files to work with and perhaps find a common issue between them.

Please let me know if you need any additional information.

Thanks
Juerg

[Juerg]

Unfortunately, it seems the ZIP file with the sample Pics is too large (430 MB) and does not upload as an attachment...

[Juerg]

Hi Dennis, hi Kirk,

Any update/news regarding this?

Thanks,
Juerg

[dennis]

Juerg,

I finally got some time to look into this further.

I think the main problem is that your files have our old EOF (end-of-file) preferences block.  This is how we used to store things like tag, color class, rating, crop, and rotation.  The latter bit was overriding the Exif rotation.

So I would first remove the EOF preferences on your files.  Select the files and go to Tools -> Delete Metadata, then select ONLY the "Photo Mechanic end of file preferences" box (last one).

This should fix the orientation for the NEF files that are really RAW files.  Unfortunately some of your files are NEF files but not RAW (CNX2 lets you open for example a TIFF file, manipulate it, then save it as a NEF which is really a dumb idea IMO).

I made 2 fixes in the upcoming release.  One is to deal with CNX2 "raw rotation" for these non-RAW NEF files (e.g. the Grand Canyon photo).  The second is to properly handle further rotations in PM when there is a CNX2 "raw rotation".  This is difficult to explain but essentially we have to combine the Exif rotation with the "raw rotation" to get a final rotation.  So if we further rotate, we have to first "undo" the raw rotation before we save the new rotation into Exif.

The net result I hope is that all your photos should show up OK and if you (for some reason) want to rotate them further you should be able to do that.

The reason this may have been working for you in PM5 is that it would update the EOF preferences.  PM6 no longer updates these EOF preferences.

HTH.

--dennis

[Juerg]

Hello Dennis,

Thanks for looking into this further and get back to me.

I think the main problem is that your files have our old EOF (end-of-file) preferences block.  This is how we used to store things like tag, color class, rating, crop, and rotation.  The latter bit was overriding the Exif rotation.

So I would first remove the EOF preferences on your files.  Select the files and go to Tools -> Delete Metadata, then select ONLY the "Photo Mechanic end of file preferences" box (last one).

This should fix the orientation for the NEF files that are really RAW files.  Unfortunately some of your files are NEF files but not RAW (CNX2 lets you open for example a TIFF file, manipulate it, then save it as a NEF which is really a dumb idea IMO).

As you suggested I tried to delete the EOF preference with the Delete-Metadata-Tool. My Tool-Dialogue does not show a box called "Photo Mechanic end of file preferences", but rater a box "Photo Mechanic image preferences" (last box). I just assume it is the same. Anyway, using this option does not improve the rotation issue with native NEF's nor with TIFF's.

And yes, some of the NEF's were shot with a early Coolpix Camera as aJPG, edited in NX2 and then saved as NEF. That was the only way to save NX2 edits for these files.

I made 2 fixes in the upcoming release.  One is to deal with CNX2 "raw rotation" for these non-RAW NEF files (e.g. the Grand Canyon photo).  The second is to properly handle further rotations in PM when there is a CNX2 "raw rotation".  This is difficult to explain but essentially we have to combine the Exif rotation with the "raw rotation" to get a final rotation.  So if we further rotate, we have to first "undo" the raw rotation before we save the new rotation into Exif.

The net result I hope is that all your photos should show up OK and if you (for some reason) want to rotate them further you should be able to do that.

Looking forward to the new release and hope it fixes most of my issues.

And just to be clear, the ONLY reason I want to rotate old files further is that they showed correct in PM5, but incorrect in PM6. Thus I tried to correct by rotating them again.

I also had an exchange with Howard regarding the TIFF rotation problem:

Regarding the TIFFs, Neither Kirk or I were able to reproduce that problem, however, Kirk tends to use MacOS, and I am typically on a Mac as well. I tried your TIFF file on Windows and was then unable to rotate it. I will share this with Kirk and Dennis. Now that we can reproduce the issue, hopefully we will be able to provide an explanation.

I hope you can also include a fix for this issue with the new release 

Thanks and regards,
Juerg