Author Topic: keywords panel  (Read 502 times)

Offline Bob M

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keywords panel
« on: December 17, 2023, 11:24:11 AM »
Where can I find a detailed explanation / description of the keywords panel (the panel that appears when I type crtl-k)?  As far as I can see it is not explicitly documented in your online help.  I suppose it should be obvious, but it's not completely obvious to me; there seem to be some subtleties that I'm missing.  In particular:
1) What is the panel populated with with a fresh start of PM?
2) What does "add to master" and "load from master" do?

Not that I think it matters but I'm running PM+ build 6890 on Win 10.

Offline ahoward

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Re: keywords panel
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2023, 09:26:42 AM »
Where can I find a detailed explanation / description of the keywords panel (the panel that appears when I type crtl-k)?  As far as I can see it is not explicitly documented in your online help.  I suppose it should be obvious, but it's not completely obvious to me; there seem to be some subtleties that I'm missing.  In particular:
1) What is the panel populated with with a fresh start of PM?
2) What does "add to master" and "load from master" do?

Not that I think it matters but I'm running PM+ build 6890 on Win 10.

It is populated with nothing

"Add to Master" adds the keywords selected from the list at the top of the window to the master keywords list. "Load from Master" populates that list with the current set of keywords in the master keywords list. I imagine that the master keywords list will make more sense if you open up the keywords panel in the Metadata Info window where you will see the list. Carl Seibert also has a great video about keywording in Photo Mechanic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l2x2xQxl4sc

Offline Bob M

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Re: keywords panel
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2023, 04:58:42 PM »
OK, that makes sense.  But I really think this needs explicitly documenting.

Here is what gave (gives) rise to my misunderstanding.

You say "it is populated with nothing".  But that's not the case.  Every time you open that panel it is full of keywords.  And that list of keywords is, to the extent that one notices from a cursory glance, the same from session to session.  That list has been apparently stable with me for months, maybe years.  A reasonable scenario would be (assuming that it is not populated with the master list) the list that was in the panel at the end of the last session.  But a quick experiment with snapshots shows that that is not the case.  There is some default list of keywords (keywords that I am the origin of) that gets filled into that panel every time PM is started.  I would still like to know what that list is.

Underneath the panel is a text input field, and below that are three buttons, the left-most one being "Add".  If ones enters a keyword into the text input field and then presses "Add", then the entered keyword is added to the list in the panel.  That is the "Add" button uses the text input field as its input. On that basis, I made the quite reasonable assumption that the "Add to Master" button also looks to the text input field for its input.  You are now telling me that "no, that button looks to the selected keyword in the panel as its input".  OK, that's also a reasonable choice.  But I don't think that it is the unambiguous obvious choice, a priori; it certainly wasn't for me.

I guess all I am saying is that given the ambiguity in the UI, you really need to provide some documentation.  I would really prefer to be able to look something up in the manual than to have to resort to a support forum.  One expects in a manual, documentation of all of the various menu items and their associated panels.  And if my memory serves me correctly, you used to have a manual like that.

Offline ahoward

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Re: keywords panel
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2023, 09:31:34 AM »
Quote
You say "it is populated with nothing".  But that's not the case.

The default behavior for a new installation of Photo Mechanic on a fresh operating system (meaning no previous Photo Mechanic Preference files are present) is an empty list. That is what I inferred "fresh start" to mean.


Quote
A reasonable scenario would be (assuming that it is not populated with the master list) the list that was in the panel at the end of the last session.
Yes, this is the expected behavior. If this is not happening, something is going wrong. I would imagine that other preferences that you are changing are also not being updated. I would recommend following Kirk's instructions on resetting Photo Mechanic's Preferences database: https://forums.camerabits.com/index.php?topic=8219.0

Quote
I would really prefer to be able to look something up in the manual than to have to resort to a support forum.  One expects in a manual, documentation of all of the various menu items and their associated panels.
Yes, and I would much prefer to send you a link than to type out replies to information that should already exist. Unfortunately, the manual is written by humans who sometimes make mistakes or forget things. In this case, the panel was detailed in the documentation for Photo Mechanic 5, and the person who was responsible for building the current repository for documentation on docs.camerabits.com either deemed it unnecessary to include in the new docs, or forgot to include it when building them, and this is the first time, that I know of, that this has been brought to our attention. I will work to see how I can include this information in the current documentation.

Offline Bob M

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Re: keywords panel
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2023, 12:33:23 PM »
Thank you for your response.

I followed the instructions for resetting my preferences.  (Including not exporting my cache settings.  However since I have never touched the default settings for cache, I was fine with having it reset to the default value.)

Before reloading my preferences, I checked the behaviour of the keywords panel.  Indeed it was unpopulated.  I then loaded it up with one of my keywords snapshots and used one of the keywords in that snapshot to apply to a photo.  I then closed the keyword panel, and closed and restarted PM.

After the restart, I rechecked the keyword panel and it was empty.  That is, it was not populated with keywords (from my snapshot) which it was when I closed the panel and PM.  Thus it seems that PM stores the opening slate of keywords (as modified by the add, edit, and delete buttons) between session and this is not affected by intervening loading of snapshots.  This is consistent with what I was observing prior to resetting my preferences and what I am still observing after now having reloaded my preferences..

On its own, this behaviour is fine once you know what it is.  However, this behaviour is not consistent with the behaviour of other panels (for example, the copy/move panel or the rename panel) where the final state is stored between sessions even when they originated from snapshots.  The only change I can see between sessions for those panels is that the title of the panel gets reset so that it no longer indicates the name of the snapshot.

Anyway, I think we both agree that the keywords panel needs proper documentation.  I think the inconsistent behaviour between sessions is fine provided it is documented.  Indeed I think it would be a mistake to change that behaviour just to make it consistent.  The behaviour of the keywords panel between sessions is the most appropriate for that panel and the behaviour of the copy and move panel is the most appropriate for that panel.

I think I now have a much deeper understanding of the subtleties of the keywords panel and, for me at least, it was not as obvious as it appeared at first glance.

Thank you for your assistance.

Offline Bob M

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Re: keywords panel
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2023, 01:44:25 PM »
I don't want to draw this out any longer, but let me just mention that in following the instructions for resetting preferences, I have lost some preferences selections (which is perhaps sort of what you would expect if you are resetting preferences.)

In particular, I have lost my default thumbnail size preference and all of my edit and edit with preferences.  There may be others, this is just what I have found so far.  I will repair these by hand, but it's a bit of a nuisance.

Offline ahoward

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Re: keywords panel
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2023, 03:27:57 PM »
I don't want to draw this out any longer, but let me just mention that in following the instructions for resetting preferences, I have lost some preferences selections (which is perhaps sort of what you would expect if you are resetting preferences.)

In particular, I have lost my default thumbnail size preference and all of my edit and edit with preferences.  There may be others, this is just what I have found so far.  I will repair these by hand, but it's a bit of a nuisance.

I'm not sure why the thumbnail size didn't get restored. It did for me on both Mac and Windows. I didn't realize that it didn't restore the editors, so my apologies for not warning you about that.

Offline Bob M

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Re: keywords panel
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2023, 04:10:59 PM »
Thanks

We're good; I've got things restored.