Author Topic: Colour tag mapping with Capture One  (Read 3073 times)

Offline scitari

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Colour tag mapping with Capture One
« on: March 04, 2024, 01:30:26 AM »
Hi There,


I don't get colour labels/tags not properly synchronized between PM, Capture One and Mylio.

And as I am stuck after trying and playing for days, I would be happy for any new inspiration or point to what to try.

Good things first ...
When I change the colour tag in PM (e.g. purple->green), it is instantly changed to green in Mylio.
When I change the colour tag in Mylio (purple->green), it instantly is changed to green in PM.

So, everythig seems to be fine between those two.
But once CO enters the game, it is getting chaos ...

  • When I change the colour tag in PM (purple->green), it is instantly changed to green in Mylio ... but in CO it is showing pink.
  • When I change the colour tag in Mylio (purple->green), it is instantly changed to green in PM ... but in CO it is showing pink. And after an additional manual "metadata sync" of the file in CO it is removing (!!!!) the colour label shown inside Mylio with PM continuing to show the green label.
  • When I change the colour tag in CO (purple->green) in CO ... it has the green label in CO, the green label in Mylio but it changes to an orange in PM.

What the heck?!


  • I am on PM Plus v6.0 (latest update) and Mylio Photo+ 24.2 (latest update).
  • I am on CO Pro 16.3.5.1929 on an Win 10 PC.
  • I am using XMP sidecars.
  • Yes, I have chosen the CO snapshot for the color classes in the Photomechanic settings.
  • Yes, I have chosen the CO snapshot with the IPTC/XMP settings in PM, incl. checked "Add embedded IPTC".
  • Yes, in CO settings I have checked "prefer XMP embeded over IPTC embedded" and "prefer sidecar XMP"
  • In the scenario described above, I have set "sidecar XMP autom. sync" to 'Full Sync' in CO settings.

I have tried also tried ...
  • with unchecked "Add embedded IPTC" in IPTC/XMP settings in PM
  • with additionally checked "Synchronize Color Class with IPTC/XMP Label" in PM IPTC/XMP settings
... but both did not change behavior observed.


Also tried various guides I found via Google, e.g. https://imagealchemist.net/sync-metadata-between-photo-mechanic-and-capture-one/


Anything else I could try to reach a color tag mapping between PM and CO?


Best

Christian

Offline Soizic

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Re: Colour tag mapping with Capture One
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2024, 07:19:09 AM »
No problème, fir me with PM and CO
Why mylio?
Soizic (France)
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Offline ahoward

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Re: Colour tag mapping with Capture One
« Reply #2 on: March 06, 2024, 11:28:51 AM »
Given that Photo Mechanic and Mylio are seeing the changes that the other makes, it seems like Capture One is the odd one out, but I don't know what change you would make in Photo Mechanic if the snapshots you mentioned aren't working for you.

From the Image Alchemist article:
Quote
Note that Capture One does not use the text labels with the color classes, so you can neglect these unless you use them elsewhere.

Then I'm not sure what it does use, and knowing that is probably going to be the key to finding the solution. I couldn't find anything further on the topic by searching online and I don't have Capture One to test with. If you want, we can set up a time for a phone call and screen share and we can look at what Capture One is doing and why that is causing unexpected behavior with the labels in Photo Mechanic, but everything you've mentioned so far is what I have known to get the two programs showing the same color labels.

Offline Odd Skjaeveland

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Re: Colour tag mapping with Capture One
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2024, 04:45:49 AM »
Anything else I could try to reach a color tag mapping between PM and CO?

Warning: Long post, and: you may have to experiment just a little bit more  ;)

The Capture settings shown in attached image are from my Capture One 20 (or v13 if you like). It may look different these days with Capture One 23 or v16, but the point is to not prefer one metadata set over the other and not do auto sync. Experiment with the manual sync functions instead. Capture One has two of them in the Metadata tool (circled "i", then  "..."). The first is "Reload Metadata" to read metadata saved by PM. The second is "Sync Metadata" to write metadata to the sidecar (.xmp) file for PM to read.

Set PM to update both embedded and sidecar (as I understand you already do). I attach an image showing part of my PM-dialog for those settings. Pick one image for experiments and set the color label in PM. Switch to Capture One, select the same image file and do Reload Metadata. Capture One should instantly reflect the color label set by PM. Do the same for all PM's color labels, one by one. Set in PM, switch to Capture One and Reload Metadata. Make a note of color label set in PM and the color Reload Metadata brings into Capture One. After each step in this first color map process, Capture One deals with three color labels: the embedded one, the sidecar one and the one in Capture One's database.   

Now, turn the table. Change to a different color label in Capture One and do Sync Metadata. Switch to PM and make a note of color label set in Capture One and the color shown by PM. Repeat for all color labels in Capture One,  change color label in Capture One, Sync Metadata, switch to PM and make a note of color set and color seen. After each step in this last process, PM will see two color labels: The embedded label last written by PM itself, the sidecar label last written ("Sync'ed") by Capture One. Sync means copy from Capture One' database to sidecar file. (PM+ may also have a third color label in its database).

Color label set at multiple locations (embedded, sidecar, database) may cause some confusion. I have experienced and also seen many posts where Auto sync causes Capture One to briefly (a few tenths of a second) display metadata set by an external application and then reverting to the previous value. I think of it as a race condition where value read from one location is quickly replaced (sorry, Sync'ed) from Capture One's database.  It may be so brief that it escapes the user's attention, leading to claims like "PM does not change metadata". This is why I recommended to make PM write metadata to the image file (embed)  and also to the sidecar to make sure Capture One reads the value PM wrote.

Back in the day when I first mapped out the set-seen colors as outlined above, PM did not provide a preset for Capture One. I continued using my own as shown in the attached dialog.  The color order (number 1-8 in the PM dialog) turned out to be important back then, it may no longer be.  You will notice that PM's black color label was not recognized by Capture One back then, and i think I was not able to make PM pick up a color label set to "None" in Capture One. 

Once you make colors match, you can try out combinations where PM writes to sidecar only and Capture One prefers one set of metadata over the other, and finally auto sync if you need it. You may or may not find a combination you like.

I ended up with a workflow where I do all metadata work in PM (now PM+) and did a manual Metadata reload if I wanted the metadata in Capture One. I probably should mention that I abandoned Capture One a couple of years ago and should probably not post Capture One related stuff anymore, though I hope this may help a fellow PM-user.


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Offline scitari

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Re: Colour tag mapping with Capture One
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2024, 05:50:42 AM »
Why mylio?

Mylio is my DAM. It is the only one which allows me to fully access & manage my complete photo library on any device (and providing a consolidated view on all pictures on all devices).

Might not fit everyone and all use cases. For me it was a personal game changer.


Best
Christian

Offline scitari

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Re: Colour tag mapping with Capture One
« Reply #5 on: March 07, 2024, 05:55:19 AM »
Given that Photo Mechanic and Mylio are seeing the changes that the other makes, it seems like Capture One is the odd one out
Yes, I agree. Placed the same observation in a CO forum in parallel but also no idea for a solution at the horizon there yet.

I think I am going to raise a formal service ticket with CO and see what they might say.

but everything you've mentioned so far is what I have known to get the two programs showing the same color labels.
Thank you for the confirmation (which is also good to have)!

Offline scitari

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Re: Colour tag mapping with Capture One
« Reply #6 on: March 07, 2024, 05:56:37 AM »
Warning: Long post, and: you may have to experiment just a little bit more  ;)
Thank you Odd! I think you gave me some homework to do. Will check and come back ASAP.

Best
Christian

Offline scitari

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Re: Colour tag mapping with Capture One
« Reply #7 on: March 07, 2024, 07:46:21 AM »
Again, thank you very much for investing so much into providing a rich and robust answer, Odd. Highly appreciated.

not do auto sync. Experiment with the manual sync functions instead.
Yes, agree, have less issues since I switched to manual sync. Do not know why as I would expect the functionality being the same (just the trigger being different), but anyhow, I have chosen to continue this path.

Set PM to update both embedded and sidecar (as I understand you already do). I attach an image showing part of my PM-dialog for those settings.
Mmmhh ... I didn't have exactly the same setting as you, but changed it now.

Pick one image for experiments and set the color label in PM. Switch to Capture One, select the same image file and do Reload Metadata. Capture One should instantly reflect the color label set by PM.
-> CO recognizes the color tag change and changes ... just to a different color. (purple->yellow, blue->purple, green->pink)

and interestingly, if I select multiple files selected with "metadata reload" they all change to the same color in CO ... independent of their color tags set in PM.

Here it stops for me as your very first step fails already with me.


Color label set at multiple locations (embedded, sidecar, database) may cause some confusion [...] why I recommended to make PM write metadata to the image file (embed)  and also to the sidecar to make sure Capture One reads the value PM wrote.
Yes, agree. This has been my top candidate for confusion, too.
But after having switched PM settings to your model, I would have expected that the color tag is set by PM at all locations at once, and picked up by CO with "metadata load" from wherever, and then updated in the CO database.

My feeling is that with my set-up something is really weird. Will drop a formal support request with CO, let's see what they say.


I probably should mention that I abandoned Capture One a couple of years ago and should probably not post Capture One related stuff anymore, though I hope this may help a fellow PM-user.
... which is highly appreciated by your fellow PM user.


Thank you so much, Odd!

Offline Odd Skjaeveland

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Re: Colour tag mapping with Capture One
« Reply #8 on: March 07, 2024, 09:17:33 AM »
-> CO recognizes the color tag change and changes ... just to a different color. (purple->yellow, blue->purple, green->pink)

You may try to fiddle with PMs color name and color patch for the slots 1-8. Create your own color name and patch (use the lightning bolt) for each one. If I remember this correctly, it is important to use the exact same spelling in PM as in Capture One. You can change color names in PM, but not Capture One, as far as i know.

The next experiment is to cycle through all color labels in Capture One and do Sync Metadata and then and copy the sidecar file to a temporary folder using target file name format *_c1.xmp. The asterisk indicates the color and _c1 indicates the application. You should have sidecar files "Red_c1.xmp", "Orange_c1.xmp", "Yellow_c1.xmp" and so on.

Repeat for the PM side. Change the color label in PM, wait a second to allow PM to write the sidecar file and copy it to the temporary folder now using file name format *_pm.xmp. You should have files "Red_pm.xmp", "Orange_pm.xmp", "Yellow_pm.xmp" and so on.

Investigate the content in sidecar pairs. Red_c1.xmp and Red_pm.xmp make a pair, Blue_c1.xmp and Blue_pm.xmp  make a pair and so on. Make sure the content reflects the name you put used for each sidecar. In file Green_c1.xmp you should see the xml-element <xmp:Label>Green</xmp:Label>, in Green_pm.xmp you should probably see xmp:Label = "Green" (my Capture One 20 uses the <xml:Label> element for this, my PM+ uses <rdf:Description> element's  xmp:Label attribute). Look for the color name being spelled the same in both sidecars in each pair. The color patch should match the color name, but you probably verified that already.

Concentrate on one image file, use the same image file in both applications. Don't get too clever with multi file changes, you must be able to verify each of the colors for one image file. Work slowly, it is just too easy to forget one Sync Metadata in Capture One or not wait until PM manages to write the new sidecar before copying it.

The facts you collect in your experiments may come in handy when you want to discuss the issue with Capture One support (if you can get them to respond).
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