Author Topic: One Good (crop) One Bad (keywords)  (Read 9892 times)

Offline rolfo

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One Good (crop) One Bad (keywords)
« on: September 07, 2007, 01:22:00 AM »
Hi there,
first big kudos to the crop-feature saved me a lot of time recently just one suggestion it would be nice to have a command similiar to the "apply rotation to jpegs alt+r"-command that actually applies the cropping (as i always work with duplicated folders).
My big annoyance with Photomechanic is still the tiny keywordfield, i really don't get it aren't the keywords not important to most photographers especially for selling?. I don't have an overview over my applied or to applying keywords many, many mistakes happen because of this. The "edit keywords"-panel doesn't help me anything first you need a second click, second it also don't give you an overview if you have more than 25keywords you have to scroll and third and worst its not possible to sort your keywords in relevancy actually it destroys your sort-order and automatically sort them alphabetically if you dare to use it.
Please have a look at Adobe Bridge i think their keyword-field is really brilliant: The keyword-field in the sidebar automatically adjust it size to show all keywords (using line breaks/automatic word wrap - great!! why it has only be one line in Photomechanic?). You can sort your keywords easily in any personal order - Great! Also you can adjust the metapanel that it only shows the fields you personal work with - in my example only keywords,object name,description and a little bit of the exif-data all other fields i already automatic filled while ingesting (personal data) or i have never a use for them (transmission reference for an example) - so i don't have to see them all the time.
If you use the Datainformation-panel (ctrl+alt+shift+i) in Bridge it's the same as in Photoshop and don't have the auto-size adjust as the side-panel but still it's way better than the keywordfield in Photomechanic and has three lines.
I really like Photomechanic and would love to use it on a daily basis but after a while i always find me back in using Bridge for the main keywording work because of my problems with the tiny keywordfields (normal iptc info panel and iptc stationary pad) in photomechanic. And so i only use photomechanic for special keywordtasks not avaible in Bridge like the "search and replace"-feature etc.
Oh and i have an incredible long startup-time using windows xp - normal?
And it would be also nice to have a feature that allows me to decide while i'm applying new keywords (using either IPTC stationary pad or keyword pad) to an picture that has already keywords if new keywords should be added to the end or to the beginning of the already existing keywords (ACDSeePro allows this in a nice and simple way using a wildcard (*) for the already existing keywords - thumbnailmode pressing ctrl+M /chooseIPTC/chooseKeywords they have a new beta maybe you have a look at it)
Best Regards
Rolf Brenner
Kodiak Markenkommunikation GmbH
« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 05:55:56 AM by rolfo »

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: One Good (crop) One Bad (keywords)
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2007, 07:00:08 AM »
Rolf,

first big kudos to the crop-feature saved me a lot of time recently just one suggestion it would be nice to have a command similiar to the "apply rotation to jpegs alt+r"-command that actually applies the cropping (as i always work with duplicated folders).

That's what Save As is for.  We just really don't want you to lose your image by replacing it with a cropped version.  Could a tool be added to do exactly that?  Yes, but it goes against the philosophy of Photo Mechanic.

Quote from: rolfo
My big annoyance with Photomechanic is still the tiny keywordfield, i really don't get it aren't the keywords not important to most photographers especially for selling?. I don't have an overview over my applied or to applying keywords many, many mistakes happen because of this. The "edit keywords"-panel doesn't help me anything first you need a second click, second it also don't give you an overview if you have more than 25keywords you have to scroll and third and worst its not possible to sort your keywords in relevancy actually it destroys your sort-order and automatically sort them alphabetically if you dare to use it.
Please have a look at Adobe Bridge i think their keyword-field is really brilliant: The keyword-field in the sidebar automatically adjust it size to show all keywords (using line breaks/automatic word wrap - great!! why it has only be one line in Photomechanic?). You can sort your keywords easily in any personal order - Great! Also you can adjust the metapanel that it only shows the fields you personal work with - in my example only keywords,object name,description and a little bit of the exif-data all other fields i already automatic filled while ingesting (personal data) or i have never a use for them (transmission reference for an example) - so i don't have to see them all the time.
If you use the Datainformation-panel (ctrl+alt+shift+i) in Bridge it's the same as in Photoshop and don't have the auto-size adjust as the side-panel but still it's way better than the keywordfield in Photomechanic and has three lines.

Hmm.  Well we haven't had too many complaints about the actual keywords field before this.  The keywords as represented in the IPTC data structure is an unordered list.  Any application is free to display them in any order that it chooses.  You like the way Adobe's products list them.  You don't like the way PM lists them.  Alphabetical listings are usually preferable since they help one visually search for them in a list.

But really, when you earlier stated that keywords are important for selling, I would have to agree most definitely but I would have to interject that the order of the keywords is entirely insignificant when it comes to using a service like PhotoShelter to search for images containing a specific set of keywords.  Order is not important to a database search engine:  the photo either contains the keywords you're looking for or it doesn't.

I could make the new scrolling IPTC dialogs have a multi-line keywords field easily enough and will consider doing that in an update.

Quote from: rolfo
Oh and i have an incredible long startup-time using windows xp - normal?

It is likely that it is the Favorites and the Navigator reloading/restoring the expanded state of your directory trees that is taking so long.  Maybe some of your expanded folder hierarchy is on a server that is temporarily unavailable?

Quote from: rolfo
And it would be also nice to have a feature that allows me to decide while i'm applying new keywords (using either IPTC stationary pad or keyword pad) to an picture that has already keywords if new keywords should be added to the end or to the beginning of the already existing keywords

I see.  Well you should post that in the Feature requests section then.

-Kirk

Offline rolfo

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Re: One Good (crop) One Bad (keywords)
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2007, 07:43:01 AM »


That's what Save As is for.  We just really don't want you to lose your image by replacing it with a cropped version.  Could a tool be added to do exactly that?  Yes, but it goes against the philosophy of Photo Mechanic.
I know it was just a suggestion not a major task for me (workaround is easy) i respect your philosophy.
Quote from: Kirk Baker

Hmm.  Well we haven't had too many complaints about the actual keywords field before this.  The keywords as represented in the IPTC data structure is an unordered list.  Any application is free to display them in any order that it chooses.  You like the way Adobe's products list them.  You don't like the way PM lists them.  Alphabetical listings are usually preferable since they help one visually search for them in a list.

But really, when you earlier stated that keywords are important for selling, I would have to agree most definitely but I would have to interject that the order of the keywords is entirely insignificant when it comes to using a service like PhotoShelter to search for images containing a specific set of keywords.  Order is not important to a database search engine:  the photo either contains the keywords you're looking for or it doesn't.

I could make the new scrolling IPTC dialogs have a multi-line keywords field easily enough and will consider doing that in an update.
I know about at least three agencies there the sortorder is relevant i'm pretty sure their are more one of the most prominent is probably Alamy (quite understandable with 10million pictures) but far as i know its not fully implemented so far.
But beside that i personally prefer it this way for example if you browse your own pictures in thumbnailmode regardless if using photomechanic,acdsee or bridge you only see the first 4-5 keywords in the thumb so they are the most important to me (example after journey to albania its much nicer to have the specific place/city in the first place and not always albania -stupid example i know but just for illustrating).
About the keywordfield-size i'm also wondering that so few photographers complaint about this. Maybe because they don't know better because in so many programs its just one line.
But i hope at least my argument is understandable that an overview over the keywords would be a nice feature

I really like photomechanic the reason i criticize it is because i wanna help to improve it and the tiny keyword field is really a major task for me (the "edit keyword"-panel can remain like it is it just doesn't solve my problem i have with the keyword-line in the iptc-info panel)
Best Regards
rolfo


« Last Edit: September 07, 2007, 08:07:16 AM by rolfo »

Offline Juerg

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Re: One Good (crop) One Bad (keywords)
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2007, 04:09:09 PM »

About the keywordfield-size i'm also wondering that so few photographers complaint about this. Maybe because they don't know better because in so many programs its just one line. But i hope at least my argument is understandable that an overview over the keywords would be a nice feature

I really like photomechanic the reason i criticize it is because i wanna help to improve it and the tiny keyword field is really a major task for me (the "edit keyword"-panel can remain like it is it just doesn't solve my problem i have with the keyword-line in the iptc-info panel)

Acutally I would really second the request for a larger keyword field. It would be nice to see all at once. A 3 or even 4 line field should be enough, but even better would be if the field size changes and adjustes automaticaly to the required size based on number/lenghts of keywords (don't know if that's easy to implement).

As a workaround, I did add the keyword variable on first place in the text info field of the preview window, but it means you always have to switch to that view and look at two different places.

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: One Good (crop) One Bad (keywords)
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2007, 06:10:42 PM »
As a workaround, I did add the keyword variable on first place in the text info field of the preview window, but it means you always have to switch to that view and look at two different places.

Actually you can use the Info Tooltips in the Contact Sheet to see all of the same text that appears in the Preview window.  Additionally, you can right-click on an image and use the Image Info submenu to see the same data.

-Kirk

Offline rolfo

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Re: One Good (crop) One Bad (keywords)
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2007, 05:37:51 AM »
Hi Kirk,
thank you very much for the special beta  :). Sorry that it take so long to response (i'm currently in big stress).
Back to Topic:
It's great and i surely can live with this kind of keywordfield - size now. (one row more would be perfect for both dialogs info and iptc-pad but maybe this would be an disadvantage for contributors with small screens)
I still would prefer an automatic size like in Bridge but with this kind of solution you offered to me i'm already satisfied.
Thanks again.
Best Regards
Rolf

Offline FVlcek

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Re: One Good (crop) One Bad (keywords)
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2007, 03:24:21 PM »
Just one thing about dialog sizes - please keep in mind some of us use PM on subnotebooks - devices with rather small screen sizes. Mine does 1024x600px which is pretty standard subnotebook screen. And it already crops some PM dialogs (I know the minimum recommended in PM is 768 height). And many 12" notebooks have 1024x768px standard as well. Which complained when the XMP IPTC dialog was added. The UI is sleek as it is, but please keep us small screen users in mind when you do any changes :) I would even love to see some dialogs shortened to be more usable on 600px screens, but I can imagine there might not be enough users of such to warrant the change (and there are more important things to keep the coders busy, I can imagine). But still, if you do make the dialogs more customisable (as was wanted with the XMP IPTC), please do it more horizontally, because in 99% screens there is much more horizontal space than vertical. And if in the future some dialogs like Save As are shortened, I would be happy, but it can be managed on 600px screen as it is (almost) :-)

Frantisek

Offline Kirk Baker

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Re: One Good (crop) One Bad (keywords)
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2007, 04:38:36 PM »
Frantisek,

Just one thing about dialog sizes - please keep in mind some of us use PM on subnotebooks - devices with rather small screen sizes. Mine does 1024x600px which is pretty standard subnotebook screen. And it already crops some PM dialogs (I know the minimum recommended in PM is 768 height). And many 12" notebooks have 1024x768px standard as well. Which complained when the XMP IPTC dialog was added. The UI is sleek as it is, but please keep us small screen users in mind when you do any changes :) I would even love to see some dialogs shortened to be more usable on 600px screens, but I can imagine there might not be enough users of such to warrant the change (and there are more important things to keep the coders busy, I can imagine). But still, if you do make the dialogs more customisable (as was wanted with the XMP IPTC), please do it more horizontally, because in 99% screens there is much more horizontal space than vertical. And if in the future some dialogs like Save As are shortened, I would be happy, but it can be managed on 600px screen as it is (almost) :-)

I did not make the IPTC dialogs any taller in order to accomplish the larger keywords field.  The larger keywords field only appears in the new scrolling dialogs.

-Kirk