overwriting RAW settings with metadata

[pccola]

Hello,

When I write metadata to .nef files from within photo mechanic, I lose any changes I have made in camera raw. It looks like it completely overwrites the .xmp. Is there a way to avoid this?

Also, is there a way to update the thumbnail and preview of a .nef to reflect changes made in adobe camera  raw?

Many thanks,
Paul

[Kirk Baker]

Paul,

When I write metadata to .nef files from within photo mechanic, I lose any changes I have made in camera raw. It looks like it completely overwrites the .xmp. Is there a way to avoid this?

Yes.  Do not embed XMP data into NEF files.  Use XMP sidecar files only.  Adobe products do not work well with embedded XMP data.

Also, is there a way to update the thumbnail and preview of a .nef to reflect changes made in adobe camera raw?

No, there is no way to do this since Adobe does not update the JPEG previews in any RAW file types besides DNG files.

-Kirk

[Goos van der Veen]

Paul,

When I write metadata to .nef files from within photo mechanic, I lose any changes I have made in camera raw. It looks like it completely overwrites the .xmp. Is there a way to avoid this?

Yes.  Do not embed XMP data into NEF files.  Use XMP sidecar files only.  Adobe products do not work well with embedded XMP data.

How do I do that? ACR saves its data in XMP sidecar files, PM4 overwrites it when applying stationery pad, regardless what preference setting I choose...

[Kirk Baker]

Paul,

When I write metadata to .nef files from within photo mechanic, I lose any changes I have made in camera raw. It looks like it completely overwrites the .xmp. Is there a way to avoid this?

Yes.  Do not embed XMP data into NEF files.  Use XMP sidecar files only.  Adobe products do not work well with embedded XMP data.

How do I do that? ACR saves its data in XMP sidecar files, PM4 overwrites it when applying stationery pad, regardless what preference setting I choose...

That's exactly what you want PM to do.  Update the existing XMP sidecar file.

What you don't want it to do is embed XMP metadata as well.

-Kirk

[Goos van der Veen]

I think you don't understand me. When I make changes on a NEF file in Adobe Camera Raw (like white balance, noise reduction, exposure etc) these settings are stored in an XMP sidecar file. When I later use PM to add or edit IPTC data, it writes these data in the XMP sidecar file also, but deletes the ACR data that were already in the file.

(I suppose this has happened already for many years, but due to changes in my work and the increased possibilities to make significant and reversible edits to RAW files, I find myself much more often than before reverting to my NEF files. The funny thing is, I noticed the same problem in PhaseOne Media Pro about six months ago. After I noticed it to PhaseOne, they fixed it in their next update.)

(PM 4.6.9 on Intel Mac, 10.6.8, Photoshop CS5)

[Kirk Baker]

I think you don't understand me. When I make changes on a NEF file in Adobe Camera Raw (like white balance, noise reduction, exposure etc) these settings are stored in an XMP sidecar file. When I later use PM to add or edit IPTC data, it writes these data in the XMP sidecar file also, but deletes the ACR data that were already in the file.

(I suppose this has happened already for many years, but due to changes in my work and the increased possibilities to make significant and reversible edits to RAW files, I find myself much more often than before reverting to my NEF files. The funny thing is, I noticed the same problem in PhaseOne Media Pro about six months ago. After I noticed it to PhaseOne, they fixed it in their next update.)

(PM 4.6.9 on Intel Mac, 10.6.8, Photoshop CS5)

Please post a JPEG screen shot of your IPTC/XMP settings.  Also post one of your XMP sidecar files before it is modified by PM (make a copy) and after modification by PM.  Use the 'Attachments and other options' link when you're composing your reply to this message and there you'll be able to upload your files.

Thanks,

-Kirk

[Goos van der Veen]

Kirk,

sorry for the delay, I was too busy lately. I have just done some controlled testing, and, oddly, couldn't replicate the problem. Moreover, I noticed during the last weeks that Adobe Camera Raw doesn't always save it's own settings. It saves them most of the times, but sometimes it doesn't, and I have not yet been able to figure out exactly when and why it doesn't save them.

So there is a chance that it is ACR's fault and not PM's, or it is the kind of problem that only occurs when you're working on valuable images, and not when you're testing with worthless photos of your keyboard

I'm about to upgrade both PM and Photoshop to the newest versions soon. If I encounter the problem again in the near future, and still think PM is to blame, I will post again in this topic.

Thank you so far for your attention.
>>>goos

[Goos van der Veen]

Kirk,

disaster has struck again - this morning I reopened a NEF file on which I had spent several hours tweaking the delicate colors in Adobe Camera Raw, just to find out that all settings were erased from the XMP sidecar file. The last thing I had done yesterday night before shutting down the computer was adding a color code to the NEF in Photo Mechanic...
I just repeated the actions, and they are consistent: on Ingest with IPTC stationary pad applied, PM creates a 4kB XMP sidecar file. After editing with ACR in PS CS6, the XMP grows to 16kB. When I go back to PM, select the NEF and simply press a number key to apply a color code, the XMP immediately (and irreversibly) shrinks back to 4kB. You can see it happen in the Finder.

I am now using Photoshop CS6 with ACR 7.3.0.71 (the latest) and PM 4.6.9 on Mac OS X 10.6.8.

I'm attaching the screenshot of my XMP settings, as well as the two XMP files.

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Kirk Baker]

Kirk,

disaster has struck again - this morning I reopened a NEF file on which I had spent several hours tweaking the delicate colors in Adobe Camera Raw, just to find out that all settings were erased from the XMP sidecar file. The last thing I had done yesterday night before shutting down the computer was adding a color code to the NEF in Photo Mechanic...
I just repeated the actions, and they are consistent: on Ingest with IPTC stationary pad applied, PM creates a 4kB XMP sidecar file. After editing with ACR in PS CS6, the XMP grows to 16kB. When I go back to PM, select the NEF and simply press a number key to apply a color code, the XMP immediately (and irreversibly) shrinks back to 4kB. You can see it happen in the Finder.

I am now using Photoshop CS6 with ACR 7.3.0.71 (the latest) and PM 4.6.9 on Mac OS X 10.6.8.

I'm attaching the screenshot of my XMP settings, as well as the two XMP files.

Since you're using XMP sidecar files you should definitely set PM to read XMP sidecar files first instead of either embedded option.  With your settings, you're telling PM that if there is any embedded IPTC or XMP, it should read and use those over anything found in an XMP sidecar file.  Change the When reading IPTC/XMP: For TIFF-based RAW photos search in the following order: the first popup menu to Read XMP Sidecar file, the second popup menu to Read embedded XMP.

If that doesn't fix the problem, please let me know.

-Kirk

[Goos van der Veen]

Great, Kirk, that does the trick. What confused me is that the prefs use the word 'read', and say nothing about writing data.
But now it puzzles me that in this current setting it manages to ad the PM data in the XMP sidecar file whitout deleting the ACR data, while in the previous setting it replaces ACR data completely with PM data. Shouldn't PM always respect other applications' data in the sidecar file, regardless of preference settings?

[Kirk Baker]

Great, Kirk, that does the trick. What confused me is that the prefs use the word 'read', and say nothing about writing data.
But now it puzzles me that in this current setting it manages to ad the PM data in the XMP sidecar file without deleting the ACR data, while in the previous setting it replaces ACR data completely with PM data. Shouldn't PM always respect other applications' data in the sidecar file, regardless of preference settings?

If the file has embedded XMP and you tell PM to read it first, and it didn't make the data in the XMP sidecar file exactly the same as the embedded XMP then you'd have the case where different apps would see different data depending on which source they decided to read.  They would no longer be synchronized.

-Kirk

[gerlo]

Never used this. Tried to be clever this morning and presto all my RAW settings gone!
Perhaps in the setup of PM it would be nice for a client to know which settings he/she needs to make.
I made a screenshot of my settings that I'm using right now.
Perhaps Kirk you could have a look at these?

I changed reading to sidecar XMP first, NOT to allow RAW files to be modified and changed IPTC Date to Capture Time.

I'm using NEF files

thanks, Gerlo

[attachment deleted by admin]

[Kirk Baker]

Gerlo,

Never used this. Tried to be clever this morning and presto all my RAW settings gone!
Perhaps in the setup of PM it would be nice for a client to know which settings he/she needs to make.

It all depends on what other software one is going to use in one's workflow.  If you're using Adobe software then you'll want an XMP sidecar setup, and if you're using Capture NX/NX2 then you'll want an embedded XMP setup.  The next build of PM5 will have built-in snapshots for different workflows (that can't be deleted so they'll always be available).

I made a screenshot of my settings that I'm using right now.
Perhaps Kirk you could have a look at these?

I changed reading to sidecar XMP first, NOT to allow RAW files to be modified and changed IPTC Date to Capture Time.

I'm using NEF files

Looks like a good setup for XMP sidecar files.  Without access to one of your images and any associated XMP sidecar files that have RAW settings in them I cannot speculate why your settings would be gone.  In what applications are they gone?

-Kirk

[gerlo]

Kirk,

Thanks for the fast response. I'm using NEF files with Photoshop.
The screenshot is how I use PM right now. This morning I was using the setup as is displayed higher up in this thread.
Now everything is working as it should be.
Enjoy your weekend!

Gerlo