Hierarchy in keyword filter incorrect

[Tphoto]

Hi PM6 plus on windows 10 - when using the keyword filter it doesn't match the hierarchy in the structured keywords panel why is that?.

I start to open up the hierarchy panels in the filter but many of the keywords are missing, but if I type the keyword in the find panel it locates it. Very frustrating.

[Kirk Baker]

Hi PM6 plus on windows 10 - when using the keyword filter it doesn't match the hierarchy in the structured keywords panel why is that?.

I start to open up the hierarchy panels in the filter but many of the keywords are missing, but if I type the keyword in the find panel it locates it. Very frustrating.

The Filter (and Browse if you expand that sub-tree) are showing you the keywords that exist in your catalog(s).  If they don't exist, they're not listed.  If we were to list everything from the Structured Keywords panel, the ones that don't exist in any image would all have a zero count.  Selecting them would produce no results.

The list of keywords is generated from the keywords found in the images that you have added to your catalog(s).

-Kirk

[Tphoto]

They are in the catalog so from what your saying they should be there but they are not. EG I have Birds, seabirds, blue-footed boobies set out in the hierarchy but in the filter blue-footed boobies is not in the fly out its only listed as an individual keyword. I also changed a top level keyword in my structured keyword panel last week from animals to animal but the filter and browser still show it as animal. My conclusion is that keywords are added to the filter list but the hierarchy structure is not updating. Ive tried re-indexing but it made no difference. Have you any ideas? Like I say its not essential but frustrating.

[KeithRJ]

The Structured Keywords is where you create a set of keywords in a hierarchy and then use it to apply to your photos. This list is NOT updated from the keywords found in the Catalog. Once you have updated your photos with the keywords they will appear in your Browse tree.

I have worked extensively hierarchic keywords and have had no issues. You need to understand how they work and how the Catalog is updated from your photos that have been added to your Catalog. The keywords in your Catalog are not necessarily the same as your keyword list.

[Tphoto]

Okay thanks, its just weird the hierarchy in the filter doesn't match that of the structured keyword panel. Seems pointless having a hierarchy in the filter if it doesn't match the hierarchy of keywords of the images in the catalog. I'll leave it there.

[Kirk Baker]

Okay thanks, its just weird the hierarchy in the filter doesn't match that of the structured keyword panel. Seems pointless having a hierarchy in the filter if it doesn't match the hierarchy of keywords of the images in the catalog. I'll leave it there.

Can you post one of your images that has hierarchical keywords that doesn't show its keywords in the Keywords Filter once it has been added to your Catalog?  Use the 'Attachments and other options' link when you're composing your reply to this message and there you'll be able to upload your image.  If it's a RAW file, please include its XMP sidecar file too.

Thanks,

-Kirk

[Tphoto]

I might not be making myself clear its in the filter list but not in the hierarchy part of the filter.
Ive attached screen sot of filter menu and structured keyword panel, raw file and xmp.
Hope this helps

[Kirk Baker]

Trevor,

I might not be making myself clear its in the filter list but not in the hierarchy part of the filter.
Ive attached screen sot of filter menu and structured keyword panel, raw file and xmp.

Thank you for the files.  I looked at the XMP metadata contained in the XMP sidecar file and it does not contain hierarchical keywords.  However, it does contain flat keywords:

Code: [Select]

   <dc:subject>
    <rdf:Bag>
     <rdf:li>New Zealand</rdf:li>
     <rdf:li>NZ</rdf:li>
     <rdf:li>animal</rdf:li>
     <rdf:li>fauna</rdf:li>
     <rdf:li>mammal</rdf:li>
     <rdf:li>mammals</rdf:li>
     <rdf:li>marine mammals</rdf:li>
     <rdf:li>seals</rdf:li>
     <rdf:li>sea lion</rdf:li>
     <rdf:li>New Zealand sea lion</rdf:li>
     <rdf:li>Hooker's Sea Lion</rdf:li>
     <rdf:li>Hooker's Sealion</rdf:li>
     <rdf:li>New Zealand Sealion</rdf:li>
     <rdf:li>Phocarctos hookeri</rdf:li>
     <rdf:li>IUCN Red List</rdf:li>
     <rdf:li>endangered</rdf:li>
     <rdf:li>animals</rdf:li>
     <rdf:li>animals in the wild</rdf:li>
     <rdf:li>wildlife</rdf:li>
     <rdf:li>New Zealand wildlife</rdf:li>
    </rdf:Bag>
   </dc:subject>

I'm sure that if you were to add hierarchical keywords to this photo, they would show up in the Keywords Filter and in the Keywords sub-tree in the Browse tab.

-Kirk

[Tphoto]

Is there a setting I have not used to keep the hierarchy? I assumed that if I used the structured keyword panel it would automatically keep the hierarchy.

Is there any advantage to keeping the Hierarchy in the XMP for stock image libraries or is it best to have flat keywords?

PS I'm very impressed with your responses and time to answer these questions its much appreciated. 

Thank you very much.

[Kirk Baker]

Trevor,

Is there a setting I have not used to keep the hierarchy? I assumed that if I used the structured keyword panel it would automatically keep the hierarchy.

It does not appear that you have applied that path you showed in the Structured Keywords panel to the photo you provided.  The photo(s) must be selected and you need to click on the "Apply path to selected" or build up a collection of paths/keywords and use the "Apply collection to selected" and then the metadata for that photo will be updated with your hierarchical keywords and the Catalog will update to reflect the change (as long as that photo is in the catalog(s) that are currently set to add/modify.)

Is there any advantage to keeping the Hierarchy in the XMP for stock image libraries or is it best to have flat keywords?

I don't know which stock image libraries take advantage of hierarchical keywords, but if they do, then it is to their advantage and yours to use hierarchical keywords.  There are lots of applications out there that are not very metadata standards compliant, so given that, it's good to have the flat version of the keywords as well.

-Kirk

[Tphoto]

Thanks Kirck, well that's what has thrown me because what you describe is exactly how I've been applying the keywords -  apply path to images or sometimes build the collection with several paths and apply that collection to the image. So it seems a bit of a mystery. Ive actually not applied any individual keywords directly to any of the images.
Thanks again.

[Tphoto]

Hi Kirk should this box be ticked to keep the hierarchy? Ive attached image.

[Kirk Baker]

Hi Kirk should this box be ticked to keep the hierarchy? Ive attached image.

No.  The hierarchical keywords are always saved when applied.  That setting controls whether the hierarchical keywords are also written to the non-hierarchical keywords metadata.

Are you sure you have your photo selected when you click one of the "Apply" buttons I mentioned?  Is there any other software involved that is perhaps overwriting your XMP sidecar file without the changes you make in Photo Mechanic?

-Kirk

[Tphoto]

Definitely doing it as described, often  applying to multiple images at the same time. When I go into the image info it has applied all the keywords that I applied. I've even been clearing all the previous keywords before hand so there is no conflict. It just doesn't seem to be saving it as a hierarchy as you have seen. Not sure what else to try.

I have noticed some images have the hierarchy in the XMP from when they were applied in Lightroom (which I have now uninstalled) so I cleaned them out and reapplied a Hierarchy string using PM as described, but I cant see that would make any difference would it. 

To clear out the old keywords first I used the keyword panel with no keywords in it, set it to replace keywords and that removed all the old keywords. Whether that affects how the new hierarchy keywords are then added I don't know, but I wouldn't have thought so.
Sorry for being such a pain.
Cheers

[Kirk Baker]

Trevor,

Definitely doing it as described, often  applying to multiple images at the same time. When I go into the image info it has applied all the keywords that I applied. I've even been clearing all the previous keywords before hand so there is no conflict. It just doesn't seem to be saving it as a hierarchy as you have seen. Not sure what else to try.

I have noticed some images have the hierarchy in the XMP from when they were applied in Lightroom (which I have now uninstalled) so I cleaned them out and reapplied a Hierarchy string using PM as described, but I cant see that would make any difference would it. 

To clear out the old keywords first I used the keyword panel with no keywords in it, set it to replace keywords and that removed all the old keywords. Whether that affects how the new hierarchy keywords are then added I don't know, but I wouldn't have thought so.

Can you post an image (with sidecar) that has the hierarchical keywords in it?  If the last image that you posted had hierarchical keywords applied, then something is going wrong because they're missing.

-Kirk